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Democracy at work in House of Representatives?

m26

Well-Known Member
Contributor
In other words, he wasn't towing the party line. He was doing his own thing, and the rest of the House just took it in the ass.

That's not my point. This is individual jackassery, yes. But people put up with that when a person will vote with them on healthcare, cap & trade, etc later.

Term limits fix nothing. Term limits still allow politicians to blatantly disregard the rules of the House; they just limit how long they can do it until his replacement does the exact same thing.

Term limits are inherently undemocratic. Why can't I re-elect someone who I think is representing me appropriately?

That's a fair point, but you'll notice much of our republic is "undemocratic." Some of it works (presidential term limits, IMHO), and some of it doesn't (electoral college). And maybe striving to make everything more "democratic" is the way to go. It's a legitimate position.

It's not mine, though. I believe term limits would make our government more functional. Congressmen would use their time in office to accomplish things and actually govern, rather than spending their terms raising money and avoiding important issues lest their votes come back to haunt them during re-election.

I doubt, however, that term limits would have a big effect on politicians ignoring the rules of the house/Senate, so you are probably right on that point.
 

nittany03

Recovering NFO. Herder of Programmers.
pilot
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Term limits are inherently undemocratic. Why can't I re-elect someone who I think is representing me appropriately?
How is a law preventing the establishment of an oligarchy "inherently undemocratic?" I would think the reverse is true. There are far more than 535 people in this country qualified to hold office in the House or Senate.

An institution which lets 98-year-old half-senile Dixiecrats assume senior leadership positions is inherently ossified and in need of radical turnover.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
How is a law preventing the establishment of an oligarchy "inherently undemocratic?" I would think the reverse is true. There are far more than 535 people in this country qualified to hold office in the House or Senate.
We don't have an oligarchy now.

The idea that term limits are going to somehow remove corruption in politics is a false assumption. Like I said, Congress isn't policing itself. You could replace Murtha after X terms, but the next guy is free to do the exact same thing.

We don't need to make laws because individuals are irresponsible. We need to find some way to motivate people to pay attention to what their Congressmen are doing.

Ultimately, though, it's undemocratic because the government is telling me who I can and cannot choose to represent me in Congress because I can't be trusted to follow their actions after being elected. That is wrong on a moral level. Why don't we just take away people's right to vote while we're at it? Clearly people aren't using this right responsibly...only 1/3 of the eligible population uses it, and even an smaller percentage actually understands the candidates' stances on issues.

That's a fair point, but you'll notice much of our republic is "undemocratic." Some of it works (presidential term limits, IMHO), and some of it doesn't (electoral college). And maybe striving to make everything more "democratic" is the way to go. It's a legitimate position.
What about Presidential term limits "works?" Specifically, what exactly was broken about the non-term limit system? We had exactly one President who ran for a third term and won, FDR. It's not like he won for a bad reason or for corruption, either; historians consistently rank him in the top 3 Presidents of all time. America needed a strong leader during those times of trials, and they found one in FDR. Our current system doesn't even allow us to do this anymore. What exactly is so great about that? Would the world be a worse place if a guy like Reagan, a hugely popular President at the time, were allowed to run for a third term instead of having to yield to Bush Sr?

We have never had a President serve more than two terms in office due to corruption and "cheating" in politics. The amendment doesn't "work," it just makes the President a lame duck during his last two years in office. It also makes it next to impossible for any administration to enact and execute any sort of long-term solution to issues. The next guy is coming in at most 7 years, and who knows what he'll want to do.

But people put up with that when a person will vote with them on healthcare, cap & trade, etc later.
There is a succession line to Congressmen. Murtha would be replaced with another democrat if he were kicked out. And Murtha is going against a large majority on multiple occassions, which means he isn't a reliable vote for those issues.

It's not mine, though. I believe term limits would make our government more functional. Congressmen would use their time in office to accomplish things and actually govern, rather than spending their terms raising money and avoiding important issues lest their votes come back to haunt them during re-election.
Or, more likely, Congressmen in their last term(s) will be treated like lame ducks and ignored, much like a President serving his last 2-3 years in office.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Recently, the head of the powerful union, SEIU hit the nail on the head..."we will have our way, either through the power of persuasion or the persuasion of power..."

It is unfortunate that this stuff still plays out today. But, it is not new. If you read any history, John C. Calhoun (former senator, and Vice-President, 1800's from South Carolina) got into many fist fights on the senate floor over issues of the day.

I don't like Murtha, but at least he didn't come down from the podium and get into a fist fight...although that would have been entertaining.

I'm personally a fan of Preston Brooks vs. Charles Sumner on the Senate floor. Can you imagine watching a cane beating on CSPAN? ;)
 

ghost

working, working, working ...
pilot
What about Presidential term limits "works?" Specifically, what exactly was broken about the non-term limit system? We had exactly one President who ran for a third term and won, FDR. It's not like he won for a bad reason or for corruption, either; historians consistently rank him in the top 3 Presidents of all time. America needed a strong leader during those times of trials, and they found one in FDR. Our current system doesn't even allow us to do this anymore. What exactly is so great about that? Would the world be a worse place if a guy like Reagan, a hugely popular President at the time, were allowed to run for a third term instead of having to yield to Bush Sr?

We have never had a President serve more than two terms in office due to corruption and "cheating" in politics. The amendment doesn't "work," it just makes the President a lame duck during his last two years in office. It also makes it next to impossible for any administration to enact and execute any sort of long-term solution to issues. The next guy is coming in at most 7 years, and who knows what he'll want to do.

...
Or, more likely, Congressmen in their last term(s) will be treated like lame ducks and ignored, much like a President serving his last 2-3 years in office.

Get your history straight. FDR was elected to four terms not three. Nothing he did was so spectacular. You can argue that many of his actions actually prolonged the great depression. When the Supreme Court ruled against many of his programs, he came up with a scheme to allow him to appoint more justices until he had a majority on his size.

I don't think you can argue that electing Reagan to a third term would have benefited the country. Then you would have had a sitting suffering from a mental illness (Alzheimer's). Why is there a requirement a president accomplish something during his tenure? It is the same a changing something just to get a FITREP bullet. If current works, why change things and screw them up.

Term limits are a good thing. How effective is Sen Bryd at representing W. Va. when he is in the hospital all the time? He has be a senator for 23% of this country's history (50 years) and what has he accomplished. He has a lot of buildings named after him, but what else can you say he has done? If you can't accomplish what you want as a legislator in 12 years, you are a failure. Where else in the country do you have the same job for so long?

America has plenty of strong leaders. They are all over. This country is much bigger than any one person. That is what makes it so great. The longer politicians serve the less they care about there constituents well being and the more they care about theirs.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Get your history straight. FDR was elected to four terms not three. Nothing he did was so spectacular. You can argue that many of his actions actually prolonged the great depression. When the Supreme Court ruled against many of his programs, he came up with a scheme to allow him to appoint more justices until he had a majority on his size.
Sir, I think you need to read my post more carefully. FDR is the only President who ran for more than two terms. I'm aware he ran for a fourth, but that is irrelevant compared to everyone else's two.

FDR oversaw us come out of the Great Depression and lead the U.S. to victory in Europe in WWII. If that is "nothing spectacular" to you, then we'll have to agree to disagree. Most historians place FDR as one of our best Presidents of all time, though, so you're not exactly in good company.

I don't think you can argue that electing Reagan to a third term would have benefited the country. Then you would have had a sitting suffering from a mental illness (Alzheimer's).
Well, at that point he would presumably resign or simply choose not to run for a third term. The point I was trying to make is that why should we have to change leaders if the people of the U.S. deem that the one we have is excelling at his job?

Why is there a requirement a president accomplish something during his tenure? It is the same a changing something just to get a FITREP bullet. If current works, why change things and screw them up.
It is not a requirement that a President accomplishes something, and I never claimed it was. What I am claiming is that it is impossible in our current political structure to have a President accomplish a long term solution.

For example, let's say we elect a President who wants to genuinely get rid of entitlement spending. That's not a one-day decision; there are many Americans who paid into the system for a long time who are counting on its benefits. Such a plan to tackle this would require a long term solution that would undoubtedly be modified and eventually overturned by future administrations. So we have what we have now -- a bunch of "let's do nothing" as the budget spirals out of control.

How effective is Sen Bryd at representing W. Va. when he is in the hospital all the time? He has be a senator for 23% of this country's history (50 years) and what has he accomplished. He has a lot of buildings named after him, but what else can you say he has done? If you can't accomplish what you want as a legislator in 12 years, you are a failure. Where else in the country do you have the same job for so long?
It doesn't matter how effective I think this Senator is; I don't live in W. Va. What matters is that the people of WV have a right to re-elect this man if they feel he is adequately representing them in Congress. Clearly they are not as upset about his health as you are since they have continued to re-elect him.

Congressmen aren't being re-elected through some crazy corrupt scheme to keep them in office. They're being re-elected because people aren't paying attention. People go to the polls and decide to vote for a person because he's a member of a party. It is not the government's responsibility to change the system because people are lazy; it's the people's responsibility to be aware of who they are electing. It's not like this information is hidden -- a simple internet search (at a public library for those unable to afford internet) can reveal an entire voting record, how often a Congressman is present, etc.

Term limits aren't going to make people pay attention, and replacing one yukko with another every 12 years isn't going to change a damn thing. They only take away my Constitutional right to vote for my representative and Senators. But I suppose taking away people's rights is the de-facto solution to every problem in this country (see: The New Deal, Obama's healthcare). Congress didn't like FDR because he was the first President to shift the balance of power from Congress to the Presidency, so they took away our right to vote for a Presidency beyond two terms through amending the Constitution.

And as much as what I think Murtha is doing in the video is flat-out criminal, the fact of the matter remains that if the other Congressmen are not so disgusted by it that let him remain a Representative and his constituents feel like he is representing their interests, then they have a right to re-elect him. I'm not going to push for term limits because I don't agree with who someone else elects for the House.
 

Clux4

Banned
I don't think you can argue that electing Reagan to a third term would have benefited the country.

He would have had the economic issues of the Bush 41 administration as his baby and people would have questioned Reaganomics.
 

OnTopTime

ROBO TACCO
None
Get your history straight. FDR was elected to four terms not three. Nothing he did was so spectacular. You can argue that many of his actions actually prolonged the great depression. When the Supreme Court ruled against many of his programs, he came up with a scheme to allow him to appoint more justices until he had a majority on his size.

To correct your crooked history:
FDR proposed a so-called "court packing scheme" that would have allowed him to appoint a new justice for every currently serving justice older than 70 1/2 (up to six new justices), but Congress rejected the plan.
 

MasterBates

Well-Known Member
Also, a lot of FDRs programs arguably PROLONGED the depression by stretching the correction out over a decade, not a couple years.

FDR did not get us out of the depression... WWII got us out of the depression.
 

HeyJoe

Fly Navy! ...or USMC
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Or, more likely, Congressmen in their last term(s) will be treated like lame ducks and ignored, much like a President serving his last 2-3 years in office.

Not so at all because of different dynamic in both houses of Congress. Seniority counts for what committees a member serves on and each vote counts no matter if member just arrived or is about to leave so the backroom stuff goes on up to last minute of a term.
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
Also, a lot of FDRs programs arguably PROLONGED the depression by stretching the correction out over a decade, not a couple years.

FDR did not get us out of the depression... WWII got us out of the depression.
The New Deal brought unemployment down from the peak of 25% when he took office. As for the "the Depression was prolonged by FDR" argument, the one's I've seen put forth (and this is a recent phenomenon put out by Right-Wing think tanks); well, I've yet to read one that didn't misrepresent the facts.
Arguably indeed.
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
The New Deal brought unemployment down from the peak of 25% when he took office. As for the "the Depression was prolonged by FDR" argument, the one's I've seen put forth (and this is a recent phenomenon put out by Right-Wing think tanks); well, I've yet to read one that didn't misrepresent the facts.
Arguably indeed.

Then why do my economic history textbooks all describe the New Deal as basically ineffective (didn't prolong the Depression, but didn't help it) and the Smoot-Hawley tariffs as completely counterproductive? The New Deal helped the American psyche, but was not the reason the economy recovered. It's not just right-wing nut jobs who argue this.
 

A4sForever

BTDT OLD GUY
pilot
Contributor
From the Eleanor Roosevelt National Historic Site, Hyde Park, New York website:

"... Only when the federal government imposed rationing, recruited 6 million defense workers (including women and African Americans), drafted 6 million soldiers, and ran massive deficits to fight World War II did the Great Depression finally end ..."

DAMN those right-wingers AND DAMN their think tanks !!! :icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol::icon_lol:

P.S. ... I always preferred to fly right wing vs. left wing -- it seemed 'easier' and certainly had a more 'natural feeling' ... :)

dsc01955small.jpg

image by A4sForever
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Then why do my economic history textbooks all describe the New Deal as basically ineffective (didn't prolong the Depression, but didn't help it) and the Smoot-Hawley tariffs as completely counterproductive?
Because your professor decided to assign books that argue a viewpoint with which he agrees? Never heard of that happening before...
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Then why do my economic history textbooks all describe the New Deal as basically ineffective (didn't prolong the Depression, but didn't help it) and the Smoot-Hawley tariffs as completely counterproductive? The New Deal helped the American psyche, but was not the reason the economy recovered. It's not just right-wing nut jobs who argue this.

The Smoot-Hawley tariffs were completely seperate and had nothing to do with the New Deal, passed 3 years before Roosevelt even took office. Why conflate the two? Maybe you needed to read your textbooks a little closer......;)
 
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