Disassociated tour for aviators on aircraft carriers/gators

[Max the Mad Russian]

Ah,

4. USN VADM Richmond "Kelly" Turner, a famous amphib commander of WWII, a former NA (up to Cdr and a shore tour in BuAer 1935-36, after which he returned to surface community), mostly by his amazing commanding by a line of four troop transports while maneuvering under IJN torpedo-bombers night attack in 1943, during which his vessels avoided the 40+ dropped torpedoes and shoot down several G4Ms. Win.
What about nowadays, though, who of NA/NFOs was the last CNO?

 

[Brett327]

Today, it's very uncommon for officers to switch designators once their careers are established. Once you make flag rank, you're much more of a generalist. Aviation flag officers have, and continue, to serve in the highest positions - JCS, and combatant commanders, to name a few.

Edit: CNO Jay Johnson comes to mind.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Edit: CNO Jay Johnson comes to mind.

Thanks a lot. There is a bunch of opinions that the single community for all the service time is a mistake, but it isn't evident and proved enough. I have read the article about the readiness of surface community where the author said it'd be better to boil the experiences of all communities down to "integrated" approach. In any case, there is more similarity between Naval Aviation and Silence Service that Surface one to each. Here it lies -http://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/1987-12/surface-navy-not-ready. Note, again - Johnson jumped in the cockpit of F-14 from the Crusader's one, skipping the "Ph-4" ordeal. But he was the last winged CNO up today... By the way, I found out that in average an underwater hour of officer submariner in USN is paid roughly twice as the flying hour of officer NA/NFO... Are the submariners the most rich officers in USN? In Russian Navy they certainy are. Never been keen on the submarines, but when my classmate being a Dept Head of Delta-III SSBN bought a fresh Porsche 911 in restyling form, I shortly felt a sort of envy...

 

[Gatordev]

By the way, I found out that in average an underwater hour of officer submariner in USN is paid roughly twice as the flying hour of officer NA/NFO

I'm not sure where that number is coming from. The pay chart I found in a quick Google search (which might be a year or two old) shows an O5 over 18 years earns $835/month for Sub pay. An O5 over 16 years of flying experience makes about the same (flight pay doesn't take into account your rank). All the other pays are the same for a given officer/enlisted living the in the same area.

Nuke bonuses may off-set the numbers a bit, but aviators get bonuses, as well, so the comparison requires more specific details.

 

[squorch2]

But he was the last winged CNO

Indeed... selection of the next CNO (up in, what, 2020?) will be interesting.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

I'm not sure where that number is coming from.

You mean 840\16 versus 835\14 for O-5s? That is, if I undrestand correctly, the charts for qualified officers appointed to combat-ready squadron (either Navy or Air Force) and/or boat no matter whether it deployed or not. I've been told by former USN submarine guy (NUPOC\OCS, then 6 years on "LA"-boats and went out) that every submerged hour matters for officers with Dolphins for special payments per hour while the boat is deployed and that NAs get roughly a half of it for flying hour, also when deployed. Have no other source to support by. What about the nukes, maybe this - http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/special-pay/navy-officer-nuclear-career-bonuses.html is the main well of the speculations.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

Indeed... selection of the next CNO (up in, what, 2020?) will be interesting.

I think it is due to the gap in NA/NFO cadre knocked out by the Tailhook Scandal. Military is unfair. We here have the short story that all that militaries do is always scheduled by four subsequent stages:
1. Frightening;
2. Complicating;
3. Innocents' punishment;
4. Strangers' awarding.
Reading the Tailhook articles, I see that US militaries generally stick with the same rules
Well, three CNOs SWOs (Clark, Mullen, Roughead) then two submariners (Greenert and Richardson), in 2020, actually, there should be NA/NFO. Will be funny enough if he or she will be NFO, especially from MPRA community.

 

[squorch2]

Given that SSBN(X) will be on its way to wherever it ends up going and the surface fleet will need some sort of recapitalization effort, I'm betting on a SWO.

 

[Gatordev]

You mean 840\16 versus 835\14 for O-5s? That is, if I undrestand correctly, the charts for qualified officers appointed to combat-ready squadron (either Navy or Air Force) and/or boat no matter whether it deployed or not. I've been told by former USN submarine guy (NUPOC\OCS, then 6 years on "LA"-boats and went out) that every submerged hour matters for officers with Dolphins for special payments per hour while the boat is deployed and that NAs get roughly a half of it for flying hour, also when deployed. Have no other source to support by. What about the nukes, maybe this - http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/special-pay/navy-officer-nuclear-career-bonuses.html is the main well of the speculations.

Both communities offer bonuses. The size of the bonus changes depending on how many bodies the Navy needs for each community. For now, let's forget the bonus question because it's very fluid, from year to year.

That said, here's the ACIP (aviators) pay table:

As an Officer (Includes Flight Training) Monthly Rate
2 or Less $125
Over 2 $156
Over 3 $188
Over 4 $206
Over 6 $650
Over 14 $840
Over 22 $585

And here's Sub Pay (I'm just sticking with officers for now since they're paid more):



From this you can see that Submariners initially get paid more when they first report to their command, vs an aviator (a boat vs a training squadron), but by the time an aviator is hitting the fleet, he has quickly caught up with his fellow sub dudes. It does look like there's a gap for a brand new LT aviator for 2 years, but then he catches up. Also, keep in mind the aviator is also earning $100 extra a month during his first two deployments for Sea Pay, which while underway, fills the gap.

In the end, it does look like the Sub guys do make slightly more when not deployed (they earn sea pay while at home, unlike aviators), but it's still a relatively small amount, so it's not lavishly different.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

and the surface fleet will need some sort of recapitalization effort, I'm betting on a SWO.

It makes sense if LCS-shaped (either single- or triple-hulled) way of wasting money will be cut for good. I think no SWO admiral potentially able to sit down in the CNO armchair would dare to cut it off at the end of a new Administration's first term (c. 2020), especially if Mr. McCain will be either in the White House or around it. Seems that it'd be easier for civilian naval brass to use the CNO from other community to refund the surface navy. But your view is much sharper than mine, so we will see.

In the end, it does look like the Sub guys do make slightly more when not deployed (they earn sea pay while at home, unlike aviators), but it's still a relatively small amount, so it's not lavishly different.

Many thanks for explanations, aside from the main subject it reveals the reason why retention rate of the submarine community for the junior officers is so stable.

 

[Brett327]

I think it is due to the gap in NA/NFO cadre knocked out by the Tailhook Scandal. Military is unfair. We here have the short story that all that militaries do is always scheduled by four subsequent stages:
1. Frightening;
2. Complicating;
3. Innocents' punishment;
4. Strangers' awarding.
Reading the Tailhook articles, I see that US militaries generally stick with the same rules
Well, three CNOs SWOs (Clark, Mullen, Roughead) then two submariners (Greenert and Richardson), in 2020, actually, there should be NA/NFO. Will be funny enough if he or she will be NFO, especially from MPRA community.

I think you may be focusing on CNO as the pinnacle Flag job a bit to narrowly. There are other 4-star jobs that are regularly filled with Aviators. ADM Gortney at NORTHCOM and ADM Harris at PACOM, for example - NA and NFO, respectively. These COCOM positions are joint operational warfighters, where the service chiefs deal mostly with man/train/equip. As a warrior, which would appeal more to you?

 

[squorch2]

The ability to influence the path of the Navy for years seems pretty important too.

 

[Brett327]

The ability to influence the path of the Navy for years seems pretty important too.

No doubt, but it's not the only game in town for Navy FO's, which is my point.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

As a warrior, which would appeal more to you?

It would depend mostly on the sense you add to the word "warrior". I personally prefer not to use this word in nowaday circumstances since the only "warriors" who deserve the straight connotation of it are those who are fighting without salaries, charts, scales and so on, i.e. rebels and some dumbasses who hardly can read even in their own language and are constantly losing their hands or lives while trying to activate unplugged IEDs. Anyway, as a tactical level commander I would appreciate the good joint theatrical or area CinC, who is essentially an Operations Officer, no matter of the rank and numbers of subordinate staffs. As an officer who is in charge of some staff work, oppositely, I was always eager to track our analog of service chief with his decisions in training and equipment on a daily basis as the running of the frigate' or coast guard cutter division hugely depend on the quality of the personnell (we are still "conscription" country) and unification of equipment (we are the armed forces with centuries-lasted negative tradition of poor liaison). And in the end, in my opinion, the personnel matters more. Even if the theatrical commander made poor operational decisions, his tactical subordinate, sticking with the Mission Command approach, can fix it by his performance. So yes, I prefer to state that the servise chiefs are more important flag officers to demonstrate the proper (i.e. creative and responsible at once) management.

 

[Max the Mad Russian]

No doubt, but it's not the only game in town for Navy FO's, which is my point.

Of course I agree as the combination of the intention to possess the sharpest Situational Awareness and a habit to teamwork (both are the features of the good NFO to a greater degree than in NA's case, in my opinion) can open many doors in the National security structure.