Enlisted get a shot at a seat in the cockpit

[Brett327]

...pilots on board from 42 to 30 per squadron.

And I thought having 7 of them around was bad. The horror!

Great post! Out of curiosity, is the manning of a squadron still the same as it was during my VP days in the early 90s? We had 11 crews and somewhere between 12-18 aircraft. Have the FLE issues and reduced airframe availability impacted the number of A/C per squadron? Do you guys have to play musical P-3s within a wing to get the deploying squadron enough FMC planes? I remember when there were 5 squadrons plus 30 in HGR 1000 - those were the good old days. How has the overall community manning evolved since then now that there are fewer squadrons and A/C?

Brett

 

[Blacky]

Alright, I'm going on record as saying this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Why single out pilots or the aviation community in general, if the problem in the first place is "too many JO's." Why not make NFO's into NFWO's or *******ize some other community all together? The army's poor example should be reason enough NOT to try to institute this new program. An even better idea would be to bring in more WO's to fill all the ground jobs to allow more time for Naval Aviators to fly. That way you won't have any wardroom troubles or problems with integration. This program may have worked in the past, but that was when we needed MORE pilots in general--not because we had too many JO's. My guess is that this is some guy's idea who either got rejected/attrited/fenab'ed from naval aviation, and he's trying to "stick it to" the bad pilots and get another star on his shoulder at the same time. Another lame policy destined to die in the hands of the fleet... hopefully.

 

[The Stinkster]

Brett...tough question to answer. The overall crew manning is different, but mostly due to teh accounting for the crew, not for the number of crews. Used to be we had 12 crews (my early time in the squadron). Went to 11 crews after that. At todays rate, it depends on the squadron (10 or 11 crews) but we are manned out at 2.5 pilots per crew meaning that the 2P's and 3P's play musical crew to get the required events filled, especially on deployments. As for aircraft....another tough question to answer. As I was leaving the squadron the west coast VP was at the its rock bottom. We had just come off depolyment and had given our mission birds (VP guys know what I am talking about) to the next squadron up and transitioned the rest to complete remod or boneyard. At that time we were down to 3 to 4 birds on the ramp for 2 home cycle squadrons to fight over and the rest to the deployed squadron. A lot has changed in the last two years however. The birds sent to refit are coming back into service (east coast dropped theirs off first so they are getting theirs back first...to the tune of 7-8 per at present config) and the deployment sights and cycles have shifted to an 18 month home cycle with a six month deployment to follow and only 3 sights. (most east coast sights have closed and only Sig remains....i.e. all squadrons deploy to ALL sights on a rotation for all.) FLE has has a big effect on the way we fly the aircraft, but we are up from 58 hrs per month on each that we were a couple years ago to about 90, and the numbers are getting better leading into MMA. Good signs? Hard to say I guess but it looks promising.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Alright, I'm going on record as saying this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Why single out pilots or the aviation community in general, if the problem in the first place is "too many JO's." Why not make NFO's into NFWO's or *******ize some other community all together?

Relax - you're not being picked on. Read the message agian. It says the program is for both pilots and NFOs.

 

[Blacky]

Yeah, I just saw that. I still stick by my point, tho. My community isn't even in the list, and I still think it's not a good idea. Also, the guys who attrite from this program will still get to either go back to what they were doing or stay in aviation? So you can just whipe the slate clean.... That's crap when guys I know who couldn't hack it attrited from flight and still wanted to serve in the navy but are told "no thanks... you're already an officer, but we don't want you." If these WO-select guys are going to get to stay in the navy after attrition, they should be made OIC of the 270 radial at 34.2 DME off of some tacan in Alaska. No free rides in my navy.

 

[Blacky]

From my good buddy Punk:

Simple, yet to-the-point. Pure genious.......

 

[Brett327]

That's crap when guys I know who couldn't hack it attrited from flight and still wanted to serve in the navy but are told "no thanks... you're already an officer, but we don't want you." If these WO-select guys are going to get to stay in the navy after attrition, they should be made OIC of the 270 radial at 34.2 DME off of some tacan in Alaska. No free rides in my navy.

That's ricockulous! How many of these "guys" that you've known have already put 8-9 years in the Navy? If I would have flunked out, I would have reverted to my previous rate. Apples and apricots, my friend. I don't understand your beef?

Brett

 

[Brett327]

I think what he is getting at is guys that attrited from pilot training but wanted to go NFO and the Navy said no...the other thing is that right now the NFO pool is like 6 months before they start... so as I asked earlier why would they decide to implement this program now when things are already overloaded...30 slots may not sound like a whole lot, but as an example, that is 5 more slots then E-6s give away in a year!

to blacky: I agree with Brett that your comparisons are a little off but I kind of think I might sort of halfway understand what you are getting at.

Brett, were you an LDO nfo? you said you would have reverted back to your rate?

The only logical conclusion I can think of is that it has to be in place to fill the gaps of the senior O-3 junior O-4s getting out or potentially getting out...I don't buy the "competitive for DH screen" stuff

Nope, legacy STA. Went from 1st class to OCS, NFO flight track, VAQ RAG, VAQ fleet tour, now going to college (undergrad) on the Navy's dime (getting full pay plus bonus) at a private catholic school in SOCAL as my shore tour.

Brett

 

[Goober]

Yeah, I just saw that. I still stick by my point, tho. My community isn't even in the list, and I still think it's not a good idea. Also, the guys who attrite from this program will still get to either go back to what they were doing or stay in aviation? So you can just whipe the slate clean.... That's crap when guys I know who couldn't hack it attrited from flight and still wanted to serve in the navy but are told "no thanks... you're already an officer, but we don't want you." If these WO-select guys are going to get to stay in the navy after attrition, they should be made OIC of the 270 radial at 34.2 DME off of some tacan in Alaska. No free rides in my navy.

Yeah, but that's not quite the same case for them. Trust me, it's not going to be a clean slate. There's a lot of motivation pushing you to keep from becoming one of those sent back. "Hi, I used to be an officer in a flight training program but couldn't hack it. Want me to tend the cord while you buff?" Yeah, 'cause you want to be that guy... These guys will have a stigma attached to them once they come up for chief, so they'd likely be looking at the terminal pay grade of E-6 for their careers.

To address the second part, unlike most of the standard flight school attrites, these guys already have Big Navy experience and job skills that exceed the ability to tread water and drownproof for 2 mins each. Better to recycle them and have them working in their field than be a pulse sitting at a desk somewhere. Remember - warrants are technical experts. What if the guy had been a blackshoe rate before w/ no aviation experience? Does this mean only former NAC designated guys need apply for the program? Just a few thoughts to kick around...

 

[A6-EA6]

I think what he is getting at is guys that attrited from pilot training but wanted to go NFO and the Navy said no...the other thing is that right now the NFO pool is like 6 months before they start... so as I asked earlier why would they decide to implement this program now when things are already overloaded...30 slots may not sound like a whole lot, but as an example, that is 5 more slots then E-6s give away in a year!

to blacky: I agree with Brett that your comparisons are a little off but I kind of think I might sort of halfway understand what you are getting at.

Brett, were you an LDO nfo? you said you would have reverted back to your rate?

The only logical conclusion I can think of is that it has to be in place to fill the gaps of the senior O-3 junior O-4s getting out or potentially getting out...I don't buy the "competitive for DH screen" stuff

You guys are reading WAY too much into this. The program will replace A FEW JOs in the squadron with WOs which will result in A FEW LESS guys to compete with on your JO tour resulting in A FEW MORE guys having a DH tour. Remember the way Big Navy thinks on your career path: everyone should be on the track for CNO...period! With LESS JOs to start with, the percentage of JOs that move up the chain will be higher, mission accomplished! I know of plenty of folks in the VP community who are leaving as JOs because they know they have such a small chance of making DH, they look at the percentages and weigh their options.

OBTW, it just happens to cost less to pay a WO as well, bonus savings for the USN when everyone in the world is starting to realize it costs big money to pay for talent over the long run (think retirement pay, medical care, etc...). Just look at the big corporations in the US (Airlines, car manufacturing) as they cut people and pensions to be more competetive.

Naval Aviation has been at the forefront of bringing in "best practices" from the civilian world, this is just another attempt to streamline costs and boost retention. No conspiracy theories, no attempts to screw people over, just ways to save some money and boost retention (which also saves money).

 

[Helo Guy]

You guys are reading WAY too much into this. The program will replace A FEW JOs in the squadron with WOs which will result in A FEW LESS guys to compete with on your JO tour resulting in A FEW MORE guys having a DH tour. Remember the way Big Navy thinks on your career path: everyone should be on the track for CNO...period! With LESS JOs to start with, the percentage of JOs that move up the chain will be higher, mission accomplished! I know of plenty of folks in the VP community who are leaving as JOs because they know they have such a small chance of making DH, they look at the percentages and weigh their options.

OBTW, it just happens to cost less to pay a WO as well, bonus savings for the USN when everyone in the world is starting to realize it costs big money to pay for talent over the long run (think retirement pay, medical care, etc...). Just look at the big corporations in the US (Airlines, car manufacturing) as they cut people and pensions to be more competetive.

Naval Aviation has been at the forefront of bringing in "best practices" from the civilian world, this is just another attempt to streamline costs and boost retention. No conspiracy theories, no attempts to screw people over, just ways to save some money and boost retention (which also saves money).

Great Post! I think that really sums it up. This thread can die now. :sleep_125

 

[The Chief]

Great Post! I think that really sums it up. This thread can die now. :sleep_125

Second that motion. We will have to wait and see. First sailors should show up for API early 2007, two years later, early 2009, first 15 (minus attrits) will hit the fleet.

The only thing I would add at this point is the recruiting aspect. ""Come join the Navy with your AA or AS degree, two years make E-5, go CWO and then go fly airplanes"" That really worked for this 17 year old snotty nose kid, just out of High School (NavCad) program :icon_smil :icon_smil

 

[Oh-58Ddriver]

I want to throw in my two cents on this since I sat shaking my head when I read about the Navy testing out WOs. I am a Captain in the Army (O-3 type) and a helicopter pilot. I think warrants need to be done away with in the Army. Before anyone gets defensive (my KW bretheren), I think the warrant rank needs to go away not because they are doing a poor job, on the contrary, Army warrants kick a** and take names. But the Army needs to recognize that they are expecting the same thing out of a CW3 as they are a captain/major these days, and its time they get comprable pay/benefits. The Army is getting away with cheap labor and over time expanding the responsibilities of warrants so much that they are taking command and serving on staffs, which was never supposed to be in the job description.

And a word to the Navy officers out there: YOU DO NOT WANT WARRANTS. Trust me. Here is my career: graduated from an academy, got selected for grad school on a scholarship, went and got two masters degrees in as many years, earned with distinction, went to flight school, was the distinguished honor grad with the highest marks of anyone in the last decade, showed up to my unit, they decided I was smart so they sent me to be in charge of air traffic controllers instead of flying. Heading to Iraq soon, will probably get a waiver for min hour requirements and not fly the whole year. There are WO1s (baby warrants) from my flight school class that graduated high school, enlisted, went to basic training, warrant candidate school, then flight school, barely made it out of there with poor marks, they show up at the same unit I am at and they are getting thrown into the helicopter and told they are the biggest priority to fly on this deployment. IT SUCKS!!!

I am currently doing the paperwork to hand in my captain bars for warrant rank, take a $1500 a month pay cut, just to fly. And I thought doing well had its rewards...not in the Army's system. Even the warrants that are the hotshots get pulled out of the cockpit to do admin/leadership jobs. Its very backward and it needs to be fixed, and the Navy certainly does not need to go down the same path...

I am done venting. Just giving you an insider's view...

 

[gunfighter77]

You hit the nail on the head. I just hope your service realizes how lucky it is to have such skilled cheap labor. If you are going to put in paperwork to be a Warrant you should lead turn the whole process and just join the Coast Guard. It seems that all of the Army Warrants are trying to make the transition. You will start out as an O-2 if you are an O-3 which allows you to stay in the cockpit longer. It is something I have been looking in to recently.

Aaron
AH-1W

 

[S.O.B.]

I want to throw in my two cents on this since I sat shaking my head when I read about the Navy testing out WOs. I am a Captain in the Army (O-3 type) and a helicopter pilot. I think warrants need to be done away with in the Army. Before anyone gets defensive (my KW bretheren), I think the warrant rank needs to go away not because they are doing a poor job, on the contrary, Army warrants kick a** and take names. But the Army needs to recognize that they are expecting the same thing out of a CW3 as they are a captain/major these days, and its time they get comprable pay/benefits. The Army is getting away with cheap labor and over time expanding the responsibilities of warrants so much that they are taking command and serving on staffs, which was never supposed to be in the job description.

And a word to the Navy officers out there: YOU DO NOT WANT WARRANTS. Trust me. Here is my career: graduated from an academy, got selected for grad school on a scholarship, went and got two masters degrees in as many years, earned with distinction, went to flight school, was the distinguished honor grad with the highest marks of anyone in the last decade, showed up to my unit, they decided I was smart so they sent me to be in charge of air traffic controllers instead of flying. Heading to Iraq soon, will probably get a waiver for min hour requirements and not fly the whole year. There are WO1s (baby warrants) from my flight school class that graduated high school, enlisted, went to basic training, warrant candidate school, then flight school, barely made it out of there with poor marks, they show up at the same unit I am at and they are getting thrown into the helicopter and told they are the biggest priority to fly on this deployment. IT SUCKS!!!

I am currently doing the paperwork to hand in my captain bars for warrant rank, take a $1500 a month pay cut, just to fly. And I thought doing well had its rewards...not in the Army's system. Even the warrants that are the hotshots get pulled out of the cockpit to do admin/leadership jobs. Its very backward and it needs to be fixed, and the Navy certainly does not need to go down the same path...

I am done venting. Just giving you an insider's view...

Does the mission get done? Do the Commissioned officers promote? Are helicopters falling out of the sky because of inexperienced pilots or is this just a problem because you didn’t know what you would be doing as a pilot that happens to be a Commissioned Army Officer? Flying a Helicopter certainly isn’t brain Commissioned officers promote. Are helicopters falling out of the sky because of inexperienced pilots or is this just a problem because you didn’t know what you would be doing as a pilot that happens to be a Commissioned Army Officer. Flying a Helicopter or a plane for that matter certainly isn’t brain surgery and doesn’t require a degree to be done well. Your resume certainly is very impressive but the Army’s not looking for astronauts just VFR pilots.