Europe under extreme duress

[Flash]

...Ukrainian jets might be (I presume at least Block 30/32C/D's?).

If the Euros are going to supply them, which is what is being proposed right now, they would F-16AM/BM MLU birds which are aircraft built for the Belgians, Dutch, Norwegians and Danes in the 70's-80's and upgraded 20 years later with more modern equipment. All four of those air forces have bought/are buying F-35's to replace their F-16 fleets and could transfer some of their aircraft to Ukraine, if they have any airframe life left.

 

[robav8r]

. . . . if they have any airframe life left.

I suspect will be a lot shorter once they are in-theater.

 

[SynixMan]

Similarly to their SAM shortage problem (and really their entire defense industry), long term they'll need a functional Air Force that isn't reliant on prior-Soviet equipment. We've already adapted HARM, JDAM, and apparently UK ALCM for use on their MIGs. With F-35s coming online in lots of NATO countries, the F-16 fleet is a sensible option that's still capable of fielding modern weapons from a variety of NATO countries. My Viper buddy says the Dutch are some of the best F-16 pilots in the world, and they have good reason to want to support Ukraine with training and airframes.

I won't speak to TTPs and implementation against the VKS. The Ukrainians have proven themselves adept and capable of adapting to shifting threats.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Most of the focus is on the piloting stuff, which makes sense coming from aviators, but that's not where the potential delays occur. If we use NAVAIR and FMS as a model, you'd be lucky to get a "NATOPS"/-1 (whatever it's called) in 6 months. NTTP/NTRPs may take a year to get released. Parts? Good luck on getting a complete PUK without a 12 month or more lead time. And of course not all the parts are the same (enough said there).

I wonder if this potential/theoretical transfer wouldn't be more like an OEM sale, but with the typical FMS logistics train behind it being provided by the OEM (and augmented with uniformed flight training). That seems like the only way to do this in a timely manner. That ain't going to be cheap, but I guess that's good for the economy...as long as the U.S. can actually pay the bill 6 days from now.

FMS sales take too long. My guess is this is some other mechanism that they can work faster, for a wartime environment.

 

[MIDNJAC]

FMS sales take too long. My guess is this is some other mechanism that they can work faster, for a wartime environment.

Yep, no way if this happens, it goes through the traditional FMS contract route. Unless I'm missing something, all we said was that we wouldn't oppose it.....which leaves a bunch of non-OEM nations to pony up their old jets via unofficial (i.e. non manufacturer) channels.

 

[Gatordev]

FMS sales take too long. My guess is this is some other mechanism that they can work faster, for a wartime environment.

I wasn't clear in my rambling post. I was saying it couldn't be a FMS case but might have a FMS-like tail that would be supported by the OEM.

But that was before I knew/read about one of the other countries providing their aircraft, which makes way more sense. So I withdraw my rambling.

 

[taxi1]

Yep, no way if this happens, it goes through the traditional FMS contract route.

I've always thought the key to future victory is to give a copy of the DoD 5000 to the Russians.

 

[Flash]

FMS sales take too long. My guess is this is some other mechanism that they can work faster, for a wartime environment.

Yep, no way if this happens, it goes through the traditional FMS contract route. Unless I'm missing something, all we said was that we wouldn't oppose it.....which leaves a bunch of non-OEM nations to pony up their old jets via unofficial (i.e. non manufacturer) channels.

They can sell their F-16's but they have to get approval from us as part of the process. The original Euro F-16 operators are kinda OEM countries, they license manufactured F-16's in the 70's-80's and have continued to share parts and support since then in a formalized structure so they've got plenty of parts and expertise to go along with the planes if they go to Ukraine.

 

[robav8r]

I've always thought the key to future victory is to give a copy of the DoD 5000 to the Russians.

Uff . . . . so many bad memories from my Pax/NAVAIR days. You're right though, we could solve ALL of our problems with our "competitors" by flooding them with DoD 5000 and other items . . . .

 

[MIDNJAC]

They can sell their F-16's but they have to get approval from us as part of the process. The original Euro F-16 operators are kinda OEM countries, they license manufactured F-16's in the 70's-80's and have continued to share parts and support since then in a formalized structure so they've got plenty of parts and expertise to go along with the planes if they go to Ukraine.

Yeah I suppose that is a fair point. Either way, it didn't sound like these would be jets coming from our stable

 

[nittany03]

So does this make her the USS Gerald R Fjord?

 

[taxi1]

 

[Griz882]

So does this make her the USS Gerald R Fjord?

I understand that you have to sail Oslo through such a crowded harbor.

 

[jarhead]

Thinking out loud, will NATO ship those F-16s with AIM-120s, AIM-9Xs, and updated avionics to fight Russian SU-35s and avoid SA-20s? What about range without tanker support? AWACs support? Link? ALQ? ALR? ALE? How long to get maintenance and supply train up and ready? Runways that won't FOD the engine?

My opinion, the F-16s would matter very little in Ukraine and they probably won't last very long without the support platforms that make NATOs airwar as lethal as it is.

 

[nittany03]

My opinion, the F-16s would matter very little in Ukraine and they probably won't last very long without the support platforms that make NATOs airwar as lethal as it is.

It's not just the tankers and C2 aircraft . . . the CAOC is an unsung hero in the Western way of air warfare, along with the doctrinal constructs that let it talk with the CFLCC and CFMCC. When I read open source articles about Ukrainian and Russian aircraft going up as singles, sections, or MAYBE divisions without any real-time coordination outside that formation, it makes me appreciate even more the poetry in motion that occurs at Fallon or Nellis.

OK, yeah, sometimes it's low-grade buffoonery, not poetry in motion, but at least we have that ideal to shoot for. Lots of countries flat-out can't do the graduate-level coordination to make sure the right effects are getting on the right target at the right time.