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Europe under extreme duress

Brett327

Well-Known Member
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Super Moderator
Contributor
I was in Scotland shortly before the vote and the biggest thing I heard from those people I managed to engage on the topic was fear about how things would play out with the EU, especially knowing that Spain would have good reason to deny the entry of a spin-off country for fear of encouraging a succession from Spain. I wonder how a UK exit from the EU would change feelings. It really seemed to me like most Scots wanted out but many weren't willing to risk all the uncertainties, and the vote hinged on those uncertainties far more than on a majority desire to be part of the UK. There would still be many of those, but this might help.

I'm obsessed with Scotland, so I'd love to see another vote, just to see what happens.

Interesting. Did you get the sense that the Scots were generally in favor of staying in the EU if they voted for independence? Was the Spanish fear linked to their own Catalonian independence movement? It is fascinating to me, after the whole EU experiment seemed somewhat stable, that world events have added a fairly strong centrifugal forces at work in Europe. This mirrors a trend across North Africa and the Middle East of increasing fractionalization and dissolution of the conventional nation state. Westphalian principles are disintegrating.
 

Uncle Fester

Robot Pimp
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Interesting. Did you get the sense that the Scots were generally in favor of staying in the EU if they voted for independence? Was the Spanish fear linked to their own Catalonian independence movement? It is fascinating to me, after the whole EU experiment seemed somewhat stable, that world events have added a fairly strong centrifugal forces at work in Europe. This mirrors a trend across North Africa and the Middle East of increasing fractionalization and dissolution of the conventional nation state. Westphalian principles are disintegrating.

I'm not sure I agree with that. With the exception of Scotland, most of these secessionist movements are not new - they've just been suppressed for a long time. Franco stepped hard on the Catalan (and Basque) independence parties and they're just now regaining their momentum. Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia were artificial creations to begin with and were also only ever kept together by force. It's a reach to call any of the troubled states in North Africa and the Middle East "conventional nation states".

When Wales, Brittany, Bavaria, or Naples start agitating for independence, then things are changing.
 

Brett327

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I didn't suggest that they're new, just that it's an interesting trend. Call the various MENA states what you want, but the trend is away from strong, centralized dictatorial control and toward tribal/sectarian.

Do you think the potential spinoff of EU member states is purely economic, or are there other cultural forces at work?
 

Renegade One

Well-Known Member
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....and kilts.
Well…yeah…they gotta keep those.
maxresdefault.jpg
 

villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
Interesting. Did you get the sense that the Scots were generally in favor of staying in the EU if they voted for independence? Was the Spanish fear linked to their own Catalonian independence movement? It is fascinating to me, after the whole EU experiment seemed somewhat stable, that world events have added a fairly strong centrifugal forces at work in Europe. This mirrors a trend across North Africa and the Middle East of increasing fractionalization and dissolution of the conventional nation state. Westphalian principles are disintegrating.

Yes, the thinking was that Spain wouldn't support a play by Scotland to join the EU because it might make the Catalonians feel like if Scotland could do it, so could they. Spending time in Catalonia was interesting. Catalonian flags everywhere, and very few Spanish, and if I mentioned being in Spain, I was several times corrected that no, I was in Catalonia.

I did get the sense (but this was just one girls' conversation with a few groups of Scots, plus reading a lot of election propaganda pamphlets) that most who were in favor of independence wanted to stay in the EU, which makes/d sense. It would have meant much of the work was done on day 1--currency, basic rules, trade agreements, etc.

This was a few years ago and so much has changed since then. The EU is looking a lot less attractive, and that was even somewhat true before the refugee crisis. OTOH, it would give the Scots a bit of a safety net while they put together a government.

I'm still not sure that the Scots are willing to take such a massive leap of faith. The Devil you know, and all that. If someone were able to negotiate (and I don't even know who that someone would be, or with whom they would or could negotiate) and come up with some sort of loose template, at least, for what things would look like post-independence, I think they'd have a much better chance with an independence vote. "Let's just leave and we'll figure out out once we are separated", isn't exactly confidence inspiring. Of course, it is in the best interest of the UK to *not* hash out any details because the ambiguity and uncertainty is what helps them keep what they want.

Last vote the UK was promising to pay more attention (and money) to improve things in Scotland, and I think that placated some Scots. I don't know enough to know whether they've made good on those promises, but if they haven't, some might view that as having given them one last chance, on which Her Majesty didn't make good.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
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..I did get the sense (but this was just one girls' conversation with a few groups of Scots, plus reading a lot of election propaganda pamphlets) that most who were in favor of independence wanted to stay in the EU, which makes/d sense. It would have meant much of the work was done on day 1--currency, basic rules, trade agreements, etc.

This was a few years ago and so much has changed since then. The EU is looking a lot less attractive, and that was even somewhat true before the refugee crisis. OTOH, it would give the Scots a bit of a safety net while they put together a government.

I'm still not sure that the Scots are willing to take such a massive leap of faith. The Devil you know, and all that.....

After talking to a few Scots I think there was a lot more emotion than deep thought put into the push and support for independence. There also seems to be a healthy dose of leftism in there as well since many Scots generally aren't fans of the current government and some really still don't like Thatcher.

This is part of a larger trend where smaller nations often don't see the need to be part of a larger country with an entity like the EU providing the services and needs that they often supply (security, currency, economic and security policy). But many of them don't realize just how hard being an independent country can be when that small. Many small countries in the Carribean and South Pacific, and even Europe, struggle to provide some of the more basic services for their citizens even wtih substantial outside help. Even some places that are semi-independent, like Puerto Rico, struggle with basic governance and often skirt on the edge of existence as a seperate entity. A lot of those folks ought to be very careful what they wish for, they just might get it.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Good article from the NYT's concerning out of balance demographics that are causing such massive disruptions.

The global generation gap is widening. In Germany, the median age is over 46, and in Russia, 39. In the United States, the median age is over 37; in India, 27; and in Nigeria, just over 18. China is running out of young workers so fast that it ended its decades-old one-child policy last year to allow married couples to have two children.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/06/s...has-a-problem-too-many-young-people.html?_r=1

Speaking of Germany, big test to see how Merkel is doing... Saxony-Anhalt (to the west of Berlin), Rhineland-Palatinate (west of Frankfurt, on the French border) and Baden-Wuerttemberg (home to Stuttgart, west of Munich) are the 3 states having elections.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...ee-state-elections-what-s-at-stake-for-merkel
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
From Germany today:
Angela Merkel's CDU suffers German state election setbacks

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35796831

The party of German Chancellor Angela Merkel has suffered defeats in two of three states holding regional elections, exit polls suggest...They indicate the Christian Democrats lost support in Baden-Wuerttemberg and Rhineland Palatinate, but remain the largest party in Saxony-Anhalt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-idUSKCN0WE0ZQ

Turnout in all three states was much higher than in 2011, rising by 5.7 percentage points in Baden-Wuerttemberg, by 9.7 points in Rhineland-Palatinate, and by 11.8 points in Saxony-Anhalt.
 

villanelle

Nihongo dame desu
Contributor
From Germany today:
Angela Merkel's CDU suffers German state election setbacks

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35796831

The party of German Chancellor Angela Merkel has suffered defeats in two of three states holding regional elections, exit polls suggest...They indicate the Christian Democrats lost support in Baden-Wuerttemberg and Rhineland Palatinate, but remain the largest party in Saxony-Anhalt.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-election-idUSKCN0WE0ZQ

Turnout in all three states was much higher than in 2011, rising by 5.7 percentage points in Baden-Wuerttemberg, by 9.7 points in Rhineland-Palatinate, and by 11.8 points in Saxony-Anhalt.

Since you are the residential European Guy, and I'm too lazy to search, do you happen to know what the general make up of the various states is, as far as political leanings?

My impression, based on very little, would be that places like Baden-Wuerttemberg would be more comparable to the US South or perhaps mid-West--salt of the earth, conservative, and perhaps lest trustful out outsiders. Any idea of that's accurate? What areas seem to have the most active anti-immigrant/refugee sentiment?
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Since you are the residential European Guy, and I'm too lazy to search, do you happen to know what the general make up of the various states is, as far as political leanings?

My impression, based on very little, would be that places like Baden-Wuerttemberg would be more comparable to the US South or perhaps mid-West--salt of the earth, conservative, and perhaps lest trustful out outsiders. Any idea of that's accurate? What areas seem to have the most active anti-immigrant/refugee sentiment?

I wouldn't say I am the resident European Guy; Flash and Brett know the area pretty well even if I have a difference of opinion with them at times. The fact that these results happened in the more prosperous western part of Germany and not just in the former East Germany is telling.

Here are a couple of articles that I think explain things well. From the Economist: http://www.economist.com/news/europ...ree-regional-elections-have-radically-changed.

But the biggest winner was the Alternative for Germany, a right-wing party founded only three years ago that is anti-refugee and anti-establishment. It did better than anyone expected. In Baden-Württemberg, it got 14.9%, beating the Social Democrats for 3rd place. In Rhineland-Palatinate it polled 11.7%, also coming in third. And in Saxony-Anhalt it came second, with 24%. Because all other parties have ruled out coalition talks with the Alternative, there is no risk that it will enter a government.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-Germany-s-Super-Sunday-state-elections.html

Exit poll results in three out of 16 German states foretell a wipeout in next year's general election as the hard-right capitalized on public disquiet and altered the political landscape forever...Baden-Wuerttemberg - solidly middle class and home to blue chip companies like Porsche and Daimler - was won by the Green Party after Merkel's CDU lost nearly 11 percent support since the last vote there in 2011.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/germany/germany-political-map.html
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
Multiple bombings in beautiful Brussels this morning - appears to be the airport and train station. Will see what effect this has on Merkels immigration plan as well as other European nations increasing border walls and security not to mention the UK's upcoming June 13th vote to leave the EU.
 

KORhc

Well-Known Member
You think this is bad, just wait. Sadly this is only the beginning, it will only get worse from here on out.
 

Recovering LSO

Suck Less
pilot
Contributor
Multiple bombings in beautiful Brussels this morning - appears to be the airport and train station. Will see what effect this has on Merkels immigration plan as well as other European nations increasing border walls and security not to mention the UK's upcoming June 13th vote to leave the EU.
They going to make the Syrians pay for the wall?
 
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