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Europe under extreme duress

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I would say Russia poses the risk, and the baltics, Poland, and Finland being in NATO mitigates that risk.
"The risk" of what? Russia poses an almost negligible risk to attacking US homeland or imposing on our sovereignty unless provoked. It also poses almost no risk to imposing on the sovereignty of any Western Europe power.

It currently has quit its campaign to spread Russian friendly governments to South America and the Middle East, so we don't have to militarily and economically support ruthless dictators that pinky swear to oppose communism like we did in the 1970s and 1980s.

Syria will be sporty.
 

DanMa1156

Is it baseball season yet?
pilot
Contributor

It currently has quit its campaign to spread Russian friendly governments to South America and the Middle East, so we don't have to militarily and economically support ruthless dictators that pinky swear to oppose communism like we did in the 1970s and 1980s.

What's your source for this? They are expanding influence in Africa.

And while they know they can't - certainly not anymore - take on the U.S. in a non-nuclear war, they likely don't have that intention, but rather try to undermine it and its policy goals at every opportunity.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
"The risk" of what? Russia poses an almost negligible risk to attacking US homeland or imposing on our sovereignty unless provoked. It also poses almost no risk to imposing on the sovereignty of any Western Europe power.

It poses a significant risk to Eastern Europe, much more so without NATO. And if it holds Eastern Europe at risk, ALL of Europe is at risk.

It currently has quit its campaign to spread Russian friendly governments to South America and the Middle East, so we don't have to militarily and economically support ruthless dictators that pinky swear to oppose communism like we did in the 1970s and 1980s.

While its campaign to spread pro-communist governments throughout the world ended with the end of the Cold War it still is maintaining and trying to expand its influence and strengthen alliances with old friends along with a few new ones. While they are bound more by being outcasts, idiots and anti-Americanism coupled with a need for money and arms that activity has increased in the last few years and is a growing problem in some cases.

Their influence is significantly more subdued than during the height of the Cold War.

In many cases certainly, but in some it has expanded or been reinvigorated.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
It poses a significant risk to Eastern Europe, much more so without NATO. And if it holds Eastern Europe at risk, ALL of Europe is at risk.
Eh. Maybe.

Clearly Putin's desired end state is a rejuvenation of Russian hegemony. But to what extent he does that with a carrot vs. stick if we didn't admit former Soviet nations into NATO is debatable.

If you're in Putin's shoes, you're certainly more willing to start conflict if you know doing so prevents a country from entering NATO by default. You win just by fighting.
 
Eh. Maybe.

Clearly Putin's desired end state is a rejuvenation of Russian hegemony. But to what extent he does that with a carrot vs. stick if we didn't admit former Soviet nations into NATO is debatable.

If you're in Putin's shoes, you're certainly more willing to start conflict if you know doing so prevents a country from entering NATO by default. You win just by fighting.
So you think if we never expanded NATO to the east, Russia would just sit there fat, dumb, and happy? I disagree. Also, NATO didn't annex countries like Poland and Estonia (and the rest), those countries wanted to join--why do you think that is, and aren't they sovereign countries who can choose who their own alliances?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm not sure I understand your point about Putin starting conflicts. I can agree that Putin might be motivated to rile up some sort of conflict in an aspiring NATO member country, and NATO won't import a war into the alliance. Doesn't that make the point that Russia is a strategic adversary? Shouldn't we do something to disincentivize those sort of destabilizing actions by Russia? Maybe help to slap his pee-pee pretty good for this latest adventure he's set off on?
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
If you're in Putin's shoes, you're certainly more willing to start conflict if you know doing so prevents a country from entering NATO by default. You win just by fighting.
This is true, and it’s why Russia has troops or military relationships in parts of Ukraine, Belarus, Georgia, Serbia, Moldova, and Armenia.

None of those countries will ever join NATO, nor do they belong in NATO.

That said, allowing NATO membership of the Baltic states was the right thing to do. These countries deserve to be free, and to freely choose which alliance to join. North Macedonia and Montenegro barely got into NATO despite Russian last minute meddling attempts, including a 2016 coup plot in Montenegro. Both North Macedonia and Montenegro have expelled Russian diplomats in recent years.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
So you think if we never expanded NATO to the east, Russia would just sit there fat, dumb, and happy? I disagree. Also, NATO didn't annex countries like Poland and Estonia (and the rest), those countries wanted to join--why do you think that is, and aren't they sovereign countries who can choose who their own alliances?

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm not sure I understand your point about Putin starting conflicts. I can agree that Putin might be motivated to rile up some sort of conflict in an aspiring NATO member country, and NATO won't import a war into the alliance. Doesn't that make the point that Russia is a strategic adversary? Shouldn't we do something to disincentivize those sort of destabilizing actions by Russia? Maybe help to slap his pee-pee pretty good for this latest adventure he's set off on?
I like how this author puts things in terms of inflection points:


The Russian national security strategies pre-2015 talked a lot about increasing cooperation with the US, but also highlighted the risk of NATO forces and military capabilities eastward in 2000 as a significant risk. That's not propaganda, that's Putin telling his military planners what he thinks. Similarly, we would not want Canada to enter an agreement with Russia and conduct exercises on our borders.

I don't think that an invasion of the Baltics would have been a foregone conclusion if they weren't admitted into NATO, and the author of the article implies that NATO membership in practice did little to bolster their defenses against this threat prior to 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia. What deterred Russian aggression in this region was a geniuine desire to work with the west to some functional degree, including assisting the GWOT which placed the bulk of US forces and focus on CENTCOM. Bush 42 did not include Russia or China in his "Axis of Evil," and even emphasized how important allies they were to the US. And it's not like NATO membership is a requirement for American assistance (see: Ukraine). The military buildup in the Baltics since 2008 and especially 2014 has made Putin significantly more paranoid about the west, which is saying a lot for someone from a society whose default paranoia on a scale of 1-10 is 11.

Meanwhile, we've turned countries who had little value to the US into a significant vulnerability for Putin to test our resolve to enforce NATO agreements in the region with little practical benefit to the US.

Russia considers itself to have rightful sovereignty over Ukraine due to cultural, ethnic, and historical connections, so I don't think we can assume its aggression to take Ukraine would have automatically translated to war in the Baltics if it were not for NATO admission. However, Russia may have played a more diplomatic long game towards Ukraine without NATO expansion as well as US interference in Ukrainian politics, since it creates a more urgent need for Ukrainian resources to fend off a looming threat from Russia's perspective.

Much like China, the US - Russian diplomatic and economic relationship has gone backwards over the last 10 years. They also aren't going to disappear nor change their culture, so we've got to learn how to coexist even though the cloak and dagger games will never stop. It takes two to tango, so "Putin bad" isn't useful to informing future policy.

Going back to what started the discussion: the GOP has historically been the party to extend the olive branch to Russia and make headway on reaching agreements going back to Nixon's policy of deténte. That does not equate to isolationism.
 
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Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I don't think that an invasion of the Baltics would have been a foregone conclusion if they weren't admitted into NATO, and the author of the article implies that NATO membership in practice did little to bolster their defenses against this threat prior to 2008 when Russia invaded Georgia.

That really isn’t a very good argument that maybe the Baltic countries shouldn’t have joined NATO.

The military buildup in the Baltics since 2008 and especially 2014 has made Putin significantly more paranoid about the west, which is saying a lot for someone from a society whose default paranoia on a scale of 1-10 is 11.

Gee, I wonder what happened in 2008 and 2014 that caused that military buildup?

Meanwhile, we've turned countries who had little value to the US into a significant vulnerability for Putin to test our resolve to enforce NATO in the region.

A threat to those countries would have been a threat to all of Europe, and would have had significant adverse consequences for us.

Russia considers itself to have rightful sovereignty over Ukraine due to cultural, ethnic, and historical connections, so we can't automatically assume its aggression to take Ukraine would have automatically translated to war in the Baltics if it were not for NATO admission. However, Russia may have played a more diplomatic long game towards Ukraine without NATO expansion as well as US interference in Ukrainian politics, since it creates a more urgent need for Ukrainian resources to fend off a looming threat from Russia's perspective.

First off, the vast majority of Ukrainians want to remain independent from Russia and that has been the case since they became independent. That simple fact seems to be lost on pretty much everyone who argues that Russia somehow had justifications to invade Ukraine.

Secondly, US and European ‘interference’ in Ukrainian affairs has been blown far out of proportion to the reality of what we and our allies have done domestically in Ukraine. Conversely, Russia has been very heavily involved with interfering with domestic Ukrainian affairs long before their invasions, to include poisoning a presidential candidate back in 2004 and literally buying off his successor.

Finally, all three of the Baltic countries have significant Russian minorities that were settled there specifically to strengthen the Soviet Union’s hold on them post-war and there has long been concern that they could be used as an excuse to interfere with their affairs. Russian actions towards the Baltics since their independence, even well before their accession to NATO, have reinforced this view.

Much like China, the US - Russian diplomatic and economic relationship has gone backwards over the last 10 years. They also aren't going to disappear nor change their culture, so we've got to learn how to coexist even though the cloak and dagger games will never stop. It takes two to tango, so "Putin bad" isn't useful to informing future policy.

You repeatedly use many of the same arguments that place the bulk of the blame our current issues with Russia on the West, mainly the United States. All of those arguments fail to take into account that the Russians have been naked aggressors who repeatedly have attacked neighboring sovereign countries, assassinated foreign enemies on foreign soil, bribed foreign officials, fomented unrest and made allies with terrorist regimes among many other asshole things. It is just like blaming a victim for finally defending itself from an abuser.

While you present it as a counter view to the prevailing one here you are using many well worn, inaccurate and biased arguments that parrot Russian propaganda. Propaganda that has obviously been very effective.
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Going back to what started the discussion: the GOP has historically been the party to extend the olive branch to Russia and make headway on reaching agreements going back to Nixon's policy of deténte. That does not equate to isolationism.

Let’s not pretend there is any deep thinking or strategy with respect to most of the folks who want to deal ‘more reasonably’ with Russia nowadays. Nixon and Kissinger they are not.
 

Random8145

Registered User
Contributor
Former Soviet nations wanting to join NATO is Russia's fault because of how oppressively Russia treated those nations during Soviet times. Afterwards, those countries wanted nothing to do with Russia and a security guarantee because they knew as soon as they could, the Russians would start trying to bully/oppress/conquer them.
 
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Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
You repeatedly use many of the same arguments that place the bulk of the blame our current issues with Russia on the West, mainly the United States. All of those arguments fail to take into account that the Russians have been naked aggressors who repeatedly have attacked neighboring sovereign countries, assassinated foreign enemies on foreign soil, bribed foreign officials, fomented unrest and made allies with terrorist regimes among many other asshole things. It is just like blaming a victim for finally defending itself from an abuser.

While you present it as a counter view to the prevailing one here you are using many well worn, inaccurate and biased arguments that parrot Russian propaganda. Propaganda that has obviously been very effective.
I have linked several independent articles and interviews with very credible non-Russian authors and individuals. That's not propaganda.

To the extent that I'm critical of some decisions we have made: We don't get to vote or have any say over what Russia does, we only have influence over our own politicians and policies. Putin, and whoever ends up succeeding him, is a fact of life. So is the ruthlessness of Russian politics. A difficult one that cannot be overcome merely with brute threats which typically result in higher tensions that place us at increased risk of armed conflict.

Remember, I'm on team support Ukrainian sovereignty. But the current administration has done very little to bridge US - Russian relations.
 
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