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Europe under extreme duress

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I have linked several independent articles and interviews with very credible non-Russian authors and individuals. That's not propaganda.
So you're saying that if an article doesn't come from Russia, it can't be Russian propaganda?

The DOJ recently indicted Russians that were paying right wing social media influencers huge sums of money to parrot propaganda. (the influencers claim they were duped...)

I still don't understand the Tucker Carlson's of the world that are anti-Ukraine, and also cream their pants about the Moscow subway system and their grocery stores...
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
So you're saying that if an article doesn't come from Russia, it can't be Russian propaganda?
No, I didn't say that. I think it's highly unlikely that the British Royal United Services Institute and an interview with a Latvian-American professor of national strategy and policy who supports Baltic NATO membership are propaganda elements.

None of this has to do with social media influencers or American mainstream media, which suck at reporting substantial details and nuance. I'm disappointed that CNN or Fox News has the resources to produce compelling documentaries on this conflict (among other global issues) but choose to produce news porn and banal commentary 24/7. I don't care what Tucker Carlson says and until you mentioned him, I had no idea that he was still on the air.

If you have a dissenting analysis by similarly credentialed individuals, I'd be happy if you could share.
 
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The RUSI article certainly isn’t Russian propaganda, but I also don’t think it supports your point(s). I don’t want to turn you into a straw man, but I read the RUSI report you cited a few days ago, and to me it didn’t support any arguments saying the west provoked Russia into invading UKR. I apologize if I’m mis-representing your opinions.
 

Hair Warrior

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Sweden and Finland have joined the chat. Putin remains a master strategist.
Sweden and Finland aren’t the worst examples of this theory. They joined NATO rather smoothly and rapidly, precisely because there is no Russian military intervention or presence. It doesn’t hurt that they have modestly strong economies and militaries, too.

Moldova and Romania, on the other hand, have constitutional language supporting the future option of Moldova’s reunification. However, Russian troops based in Transnistria make reunification impossible for Moldova due to Romania’s NATO membership. Popular opinion in Moldova is also not overwhelmingly in favor of joining Romania; it’s closer to 50-50.
 

Notanaviator

Well-Known Member
Contributor
Apparently it is for reals, and does match pictures of the ass end of an Iranian missile.

3062641-676669683.jpg
There’s a video circulating that shows an unfortunate soul crossing a street getting smoked by one of these propulsion stages. I’d heard of ‘falling bullets kill’ but that’s a different level entirely.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
There’s a video circulating that shows an unfortunate soul crossing a street getting smoked by one of these propulsion stages. I’d heard of ‘falling bullets kill’ but that’s a different level entirely.
It is quite a piece of video. Of all the ways to die…
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
The RUSI article certainly isn’t Russian propaganda, but I also don’t think it supports your point(s). I don’t want to turn you into a straw man, but I read the RUSI report you cited a few days ago, and to me it didn’t support any arguments saying the west provoked Russia into invading UKR. I apologize if I’m mis-representing your opinions.
Sorry, lots of back and forth. To summarize, I contend that:
  • I think it's not really up for debate that Putin seeks to restore Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe in a 'multi-polar world' (his words in his national security policies going back to since he took office)
  • Putin's decision to invade Ukraine was informed by an estimation that Russian annexation would be popular and therefore the operation would be short (RUSI article)
  • Putin's decision to invade Ukraine was also partially based on NATO's force build-up in the Baltics (Professor interview) and actions taken by the US over the last 10-15 years that he interprets as provocative.
  • Putin is an autocrat who will use unethical / immoral means to stay in power, but I don't particularly care about that when it comes to US national security interests.
  • Russia interferes in foreign governments when it suits them, and so do we. That will never stop.
  • Despite the hand-wringing over China, Russia remains the only country with the military capability and operational knowledge to conduct significant non-nuclear kinetic operations on the US homeland. Their blunder in Ukraine was underestimating the will and capability of their enemy.
  • It's important to consider counter-arguments and try to look at things through Russia's lens (to the extent that is possible being raised in a western liberal society) in order to fully understand the dynamic.
Were I running for President, I would continue to support Ukranian sovereignty (which in reality is costing us very little despite MSM making it sound like we're breaking the budget over this) while also attempting to warm relations with Putin. Economically and militarily, we have to stop making him believe that he needs to take territory by force to create a self-sufficient Russia to hedge against US military and economic power. If an agreement to reduce our force posturing in the Baltics and remove US sanctions in exchange for pulling back from Ukraine is what needs to be done, then I'd be willing to do it. I would not outright withdraw from NATO, but I don't see what our alliance with these countries does for the U.S. except commit us to an undesirable and unpopular conflict while provoking a nation we need to have diplomatic and economic relations with on some level to achieve global prosperity and security. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the world map is probably going to be re-drawn with borders currently mimicking the front lines. I would not be willing to commit the ground forces necessary to enable the Ukranian army to recapture its lost territory, and the longer this conflict goes the more Russia's military is going to un-fuck itself.

This happens to be more aligned with the historical GOP pragmatic approach to Russia, whereas the Democrats take the more moralistic approach that Russia is an enemy that cannot be trusted and must be met with force. President Biden is the poster child of that mentality, and I contend his unwillingness and inability to reach a common understanding with Putin does more harm than good to the U.S. and tilts Putin toward using force to achieve his desired end-state. It also increases popular support for Putin among the Russian people who blame US economic sanctions for their hardships. Putin tells his people "the west doesn't dislike me, it dislikes all of you" and they believe it. I wish Putin were not President of Russia for life, and I wish Russia had free elections with an actual opposition party, but those are facts we cannot control.

The major challenge any President faces at this point is that Putin has seen 4 administrations that have run the gamut from calling him an ally to a threat, and at this point has very little reason to trust that any policy or agreement we make with Russia won't flip every 4-8 years.
 
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Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I have linked several independent articles and interviews with very credible non-Russian authors and individuals. That's not propaganda.

That doesn't negate the fact that much of what you are arguing echoes Russian propaganda. I am well aware that there have been plenty of dissenting voices in the West on the direction of our foreign policy towards Russia, but many of those arguments were rendered moot since Russia's 2022 invasion. Those who have continued to openly support Russia's arguments and justifications towards the war are usually useful idiots, fellow travelers or just plain contrarian.

Simply put, no amount of accommodation or dealing in an 'adult manner' with Russia has or is going to dissuade Putin from his goals of trying to reassert his control over what he considers the 'Greater Russia' or the Russian sphere of influence. Self-determination of tens of millions of people be damned.

Remember, I'm on team support Ukrainian sovereignty. But the current administration has done very little to bridge US - Russian relations.

What the fuck do expect them to do? Frankly I think this administration's response to the lead up to and the invasion of Ukraine has been its most significant foreign policy success, by far. At this point we should be dealing with Russia only as we need to, and continue to fully support what Ukraine decides they want to do. And to also point out, it is a FAR better policy than kowtowing to Putin and openly agreeing with his blatant lies.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I think that a better statesman than Biden could have talked Putin out of his invasion while taking more significant actions to deter him during the 9 months he was building up his forces on the border + however long we had intel they were planning this. But Biden quite literally is incapable of leveling with Putin, they are like oil and water.

FWIW, I also don't think that Trump is that guy.
 
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Sorry, lots of back and forth. To summarize, I contend that:
  • I think it's not really up for debate that Putin seeks to restore Russian hegemony in Eastern Europe in a 'multi-polar world' (his words in his national security policies going back to since he took office)
  • Putin's decision to invade Ukraine was informed by an estimation that Russian annexation would be popular and therefore the operation would be short (RUSI article)
  • Putin's decision to invade Ukraine was also partially based on NATO's force build-up in the Baltics (Professor interview) and actions taken by the US over the last 10-15 years that he interprets as provocative.
  • Putin is an autocrat who will use unethical / immoral means to stay in power, but I don't particularly care about that when it comes to US national security interests.
  • Russia interferes in foreign governments when it suits them, and so do we. That will never stop.
  • Despite the hand-wringing over China, Russia remains the only country with the military capability and operational knowledge to conduct significant non-nuclear kinetic operations on the US homeland. Their blunder in Ukraine was underestimating the will and capability of their enemy.
  • It's important to consider counter-arguments and try to look at things through Russia's lens (to the extent that is possible being raised in a western liberal society) in order to fully understand the dynamic.
Were I running for President, I would continue to support Ukranian sovereignty (which in reality is costing us very little despite MSM making it sound like we're breaking the budget over this) while also attempting to warm relations with Putin. Economically and militarily, we have to stop making him believe that he needs to take territory by force to create a self-sufficient Russia to hedge against US military and economic power. If an agreement to reduce our force posturing in the Baltics and remove US sanctions in exchange for pulling back from Ukraine is what needs to be done, then I'd be willing to do it. I would not outright withdraw from NATO, but I don't see what our alliance with these countries does for the U.S. except commit us to an undesirable and unpopular conflict while provoking a nation we need to have diplomatic and economic relations with on some level to achieve global prosperity and security. Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.

Unfortunately, the reality of the situation is that the world map is probably going to be re-drawn with borders currently mimicking the front lines. I would not be willing to commit the ground forces necessary to enable the Ukranian army to recapture its lost territory, and the longer this conflict goes the more Russia's military is going to un-fuck itself.

This happens to be more aligned with the historical GOP pragmatic approach to Russia, whereas the Democrats take the more moralistic approach that Russia is an enemy that cannot be trusted and must be met with force. President Biden is the poster child of that mentality, and I contend his unwillingness and inability to reach a common understanding with Putin does more harm than good to the U.S. and tilts Putin toward using force to achieve his desired end-state. It also increases popular support for Putin among the Russian people who blame US economic sanctions for their hardships. Putin tells his people "the west doesn't dislike me, it dislikes all of you" and they believe it. I wish Putin were not President of Russia for life, and I wish Russia had free elections with an actual opposition party, but those are facts we cannot control.

The major challenge any President faces at this point is that Putin has seen 4 administrations that have run the gamut from calling him an ally to a threat, and at this point has very little reason to trust that any policy or agreement we make with Russia won't flip every 4-8 years.
Thanks for summarizing--when people say you're parroting Russian talking points, nobody's criticizing you for saying saying Russia underestimated Ukrainian resolve, Putin will do anything to stay in power, yadda yadda (I do draw some different conclusions than you from those facts though). However, blaming NATO expansion for Russia's invasion is like telling you're daughter "well, maybe if you dressed more conservatively, these things wouldn't happen?"
 

Flash

SEVAL/ECMO
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think that a better statesman than Biden could have talked Putin out of his invasion while taking more significant actions to deter him during the 9 months he was building up his forces on the border + however long we had intel they were planning this. But Biden quite literally is incapable of leveling with Putin, they are like oil and water.

I think it is wishful thinking we could have stopped Putin.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
However, blaming NATO expansion for Russia's invasion is like telling you're daughter "well, maybe if you dressed more conservatively, these things wouldn't happen?"
It's been a top foreign policy issue for Russia going back to Gorbachev.

We shrug and say "hey, come on in, you're a free country!" and Russia views it as an existential threat.

Ukraine started talks to join NATO in the mid 00s.

The question isn't whether NATO expansion makes Putin change his desired ends wrt Ukraine, but to what extent it influenced the ways and means.

I'm sure I'll get accused of propaganda again for linking a German authored analysis on the genesis of Putin's thinking using official records of correspondence between political leaders.
 
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Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Frankly it isn’t our business to cater to any Russian angst. The stage for US/Russian relations was set by Stalin’s post-war lies and aggressions and the Russians have been sticking with that playbook ever since. Russia will Russia no matter how many reset buttons we offer because any willingness to deal is seen, by the Russian mindset, as a weakness to be taken advantage of. All of this was predicted by Keenan’s “long memo” back in the late 1940’s.

As for Russia’s military prowess, my analysis is that they are hardly a regional power and one with very poor operational and intelligence capability. Yes, they have nukes…but our cowering to that fear only feeds Russian adventurism.
 
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