Flight School backed up

[MGoBrew11]

I don’t have as big a axe to grind against the “direct to helo” course of action. I know, lots of folk see the loss of fixed wing primary as a blight on their future airline track, but I have my doubts about that. The guys actually in the show will know much better, but on my last two airline flight the cockpit crew was all former army WOs. Looking at spending efficiency, primary is a waste when it comes to helicopter pilots - but then again I’d expect those hours to be made up in training better rotary pilots so maybe that is a greater expense. I used to work with a fellow who went from army WO to USAF helicopters (active duty) and then later to a guard unit flying F-15’s. He had never stepped foot in fixed wing cockpit until his guard transition and he considered the transition rather easy. That said, he might have been a crap jet pilot!

If you want to fly helos (and I mean really want helos) then I would jump right on the fast track.

My reservations have nothing to do with airlines. A few things that could be gotchas for someone that signs up for this “deal”…some have already been mentioned.

1. Navy down the line may say these pilots can’t be VT instructors. That means fewer chances to be an instructor. Not being an instructor for your shore tour isn’t exactly career enhancing.
2. Fewer hours before you hit the fleet. This will make it longer to make HAC…need 500 total time. Guess how JOs get ranked on that tour? Usually who makes HAC fastest. That has big career implications.
3. Faster through flight school doesn’t mean more fleet time. It means more boat tour time. The guys who take a long time through flight school are the ones who have shorter disassociated sea tours based on when you screen for O4.
4. You don’t know what you want to fly when you’re in NIFE. Regular primary gives you a better chance to talk to folks of all different communities and fleet locations to determine what best suits you.

There are many other reasons I can think of but those are the ones that bug me most about it right now.

 

[TF7325]

Today's SNA head would explode to learn the Helo pipeline of the 1970's started with T-34B primary, intermediate in T-28, CQ in T-28, followed by Helo Advanced in TH-1 Huey.

Flying the T-28 and the Huey must have been pretty awesome. *Fortunate Son plays in the background*

 

[Griz882]

My reservations have nothing to do with airlines. A few things that could be gotchas for someone that signs up for this “deal”…some have already been mentioned.

1. Navy down the line may say these pilots can’t be VT instructors. That means fewer chances to be an instructor. Not being an instructor for your shore tour isn’t exactly career enhancing.
2. Fewer hours before you hit the fleet. This will make it longer to make HAC…need 500 total time. Guess how JOs get ranked on that tour? Usually who makes HAC fastest. That has big career implications.
3. Faster through flight school doesn’t mean more fleet time. It means more boat tour time. The guys who take a long time through flight school are the ones who have shorter disassociated sea tours based on when you screen for O4.
4. You don’t know what you want to fly when you’re in NIFE. Regular primary gives you a better chance to talk to folks of all different communities and fleet locations to determine what best suits you.

There are many other reasons I can think of but those are the ones that bug me most about it right now.

No argument here, but if the big navy decides to take this route permanently (as in post-NIFE, X% are funneled to helicopters) then changes to how helicopter pilots are rated and cycled through a career will have to happen. That, of course, leads us to the bigger issue in all of the services - officer career management. In any case, the true issue is that flight school is a broken toy. The “long war,” with the luxury of no real enemy air threat, allowed the services to be lazy about pilot production but a big one might not.

 

[Gatordev]

No argument here, but if the big navy decides to take this route permanently (as in post-NIFE, X% are funneled to helicopters) then changes to how helicopter pilots are rated and cycled through a career will have to change.

A very real concern is that this results in helo guys not going to the VTs at all, thus cutting off a career avenue for one group and opening it up for others (read: VP, since that's where the most bodies are).

We saw this happen in the mid-2000's with the VP red-stripe. Getting VTs as a helo guy was TOUGH, and there were only ~2-3 per "helo generation" per VT squadron that got selected. Otherwise it was all VP or VQ(t) guys.

Others have hit the other high notes on why not to do this as a student.

 

[Mouselovr]

Supposedly they'd go train with the army helo guys for a bit THEN go to Helo advance, so they won't have significantly fewer hours. Just none in a T6.

Also, something to note is the potential motivation for folks. Its not just a desire to cut the line of flight school, but A pool became less free and increasingly more bureaucratic during my time. There's still plenty of drinking on the beach, but the QOL slowly became less fun as more eyes focused on "keeping the ENSs busy". I classed up as they were unraveling many of the systems.

I would redo A Pool I had in a heartbeat. Less so the A Pool/ C Pool (awaiting to fly the Cessna) that exists now.

 

[Rockriver]

Today's SNA head would explode to learn the Helo pipeline of the 1970's started with T-34B primary, intermediate in T-28, CQ in T-28, followed by Helo Advanced in TH-1 Huey.

And around 1977, the T-34 Bravos were gone and the Charlies hadn’t arrived, so everybody started out in the T-28. It was sink or swim.

 

[MGoBrew11]

Supposedly they'd go train with the army helo guys for a bit THEN go to Helo advance, so they won't have significantly fewer hours. Just none in a T6.

Also, something to note is the potential motivation for folks. Its not just a desire to cut the line of flight school, but A pool became less free and increasingly more bureaucratic during my time. There's still plenty of drinking on the beach, but the QOL slowly became less fun as more eyes focused on "keeping the ENSs busy". I was at the tail end of most of it and found myself in a great stash job, however, they were unraveling most of the systems as I left.

I would redo the A Pool I had in a heartbeat. Less so the A Pool/ C Pool (awaiting to fly the Cessna) that exists now.

They’ll end up with about 60 hours less than the regular syllabus according to the slide that leaked. That’s not insignificant. That’s about 2 months of flight hours in a fleet squadron to make HAC…could definitely be the difference between EP slots on your highwater.

 

[Dhoop29]

Generally, the mantra “The grass is always greener applies” for the most part once the suck starts it doesn’t stop, I’d take the bullshit of A-pool over the bullshit of primary.

 

[Griz882]

A very real concern is that this results in helo guys not going to the VTs at all, thus cutting off a career avenue for one group and opening it up for others (read: VP, since that's where the most bodies are).

We saw this happen in the mid-2000's with the VP red-stripe. Getting VTs as a helo guy was TOUGH, and there were only ~2-3 per "helo generation" per VT squadron that got selected. Otherwise it was all VP or VQ(t) guys.

Others have hit the other high notes on why not to do this as a student.

It is probably a different reason, but when I was in primary (VT-27, ca. 1986) all of the Navy instructors were P-3 guys and all of the Marine instructors were helo guys.

 

[Mouselovr]

They’ll end up with about 60 hours less than the regular syllabus according to the slide that leaked. That’s not insignificant. That’s about 2 months of flight hours in a fleet squadron to make HAC…could definitely be the difference between EP slots on your highwater.

I stand corrected. Thank you all for your input on this. I'm past the point where this is an option for me, but if I checked into A Pool today, I would have been highly tempted to take the "helo deal". After reading this thread, many of the points you all have listed would have deterred me.

My thought process would have been a mix of "no wait time", "skipping A Pool bureaucracy" and "career advancement". There's a decent amount of talk with respect to the wait times that have negative impacts on promotions. However, how I read many of your posts is that the wait times and maximizing flight time can have the opposite effect.

There are some other JO's lurking on this forum, so hopefully they cross this.

 

[jointhelocalizer]

A-Pool silliness ebbs and flows like the command climate at every command. Something as trivial as changing the Phase I DIVO can have monumental changes to SNA/SNFO/SNFS QOL. As others have alluded to, taking an opportunity just to escape the silliness of a command will result in encountering a different flavor of silliness at their next unit.

 

[SteveHolt!!!]

My thought process would have been a mix of "cutting the line", "skipping A Pool bureaucracy" and "career advancement". There's a decent amount of talk with respect to the wait times that have negative impacts on promotions. However, how I read many of your posts is that the wait times and maximizing flight time can have the opposite effect.

I mean, if you're worried about promotion impacts during A-pool, you're probably not spending enough time at McGuire's.

 

[nittany03]

I mean, if you're worried about promotion impacts during A-pool, you're probably not spending enough time at McGuire's.

This Seville Quarter slander shall not stand!

 

[ChuckMK23]

When was the training ship introduced in helo advanced?

Early 80's with introduction of TH-57 B and C and unification of syllabus between HT-8 and 18.

 

[Mouselovr]

I mean, if you're worried about promotion impacts during A-pool, you're probably not spending enough time at McGuire's.

World of beer was more my style. Wednesday's bingo every week where none of us ever won anything.