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Former VP Speech
- Thread starter Godspeed
- Start date
So then what do you say to some one who walks up to you off of the street and punches you in the face? Do you massage your face and say, "Haaaay, that was not very nice, you should apologize" I don't fucking think so. You turn right around beat that mother fucker into submission to not only teach him a lesson but to also show his fagot friends that came to watch that if they try some stupid shit like that the same thing will happen to them. THEN, after the dust has settled between you and this moron, prop him up and say "Never again or else."
Now obviously this is a very simple metaphor for a rather complex situation but this is the quick, purple dinosaur version and therefore doesn't account for the MCDP-1 type mindset, but you get the point.
Bottom line, grow a spine, kick the fucker in the nuts and check your puffy clouds and rainbows back at baggage claim - you can pick em up at the next stop (that is if they didn't get jettisoned en route).
Hmm....
Do we torture or not? If so, who can we torture? Is waterboarding torture? If not, who can we subject to waterboarding? What do we do with captured terrorism suspects? What level of proof do we need to detain them? How long do we detain them? Who gets to decide? Can we wiretap Americans without judicial oversight?
What measures do we take to prevent terrorism (as opposed to simply exposing plots)? How do we prevent WMD from falling into the hands of terrorists? How do we stabilize Pakistan?
So much for the yes or no answer.
Don't presume you know how I think. I was in NYC on 9/11, I joined the military in part because of it, and I sure as hell don't need any lecturing on its toll, human and otherwise. I'm a freaking Marine, do I come across like a war-fearing peacenik? I believe we have values and principles that make us exceptional, and which should not be idly discarded out of fear or emotional trauma.
It's easy to be a big man from behind a keyboard speaking generalities when others get to do the dirty work you support. Let's pin this down. Just how relentless should we be? Do we torture? Do we imprison 86 people because the other 14 are terrorists? Do we hold people indefinitely without any sort of adjudication? Do we spy on Americans?
No one is ending the war on terror, or pretending there isn't a threat, or thinking everything is hunky dory. As Cheney himself noted, Obama is largely continuing the anti-terrorism framework Bush handed over in January 2009 (which is vastly different from what Bush had in, say, 2004). The big difference, as noted by Jack Goldsmith, is that we are ensuring the elements of this framework are in line with our principles, instead of dangerously asserting that the threat justifies the means.
I would want to, it would be wrong, and it wouldn't accomplish anything more than make me feel better. 24 isn't real life. Again with the bullshit appeal to emotion. Emotion is a terrible arbiter of right and wrong. I can't tell you I wouldn't. But at least I could admit it'd be wrong.
Yes, you do.
I can honestly tell you with 100% certainty that I would have absolutely no hesitation waterboarding a terrorist to extract vital information, personally.
If you think waterboarding is torture, grow a pair. Cutting off someones testicles, burning them alive, cutting off their fingers or pouring hot wax in someone's eyeballs is torture. Having them choke on water for a few seconds to come out the other side unharmed is NOT torture. Maybe you've been watching too much Carebears.
We detain people that we believe beyond a reasonable doubt are running around on their terroist jihad. Have there been a few innocent that have been incarcerated? Sure there have, and we should strive to minimalize those. They are a product of an imperfect situation. But should we take all of the terrorists over here, give them a lawyer in a suit and give them the rights every American has? Hell no.
It is all about protecting those that you love and stopping those with evil minds from getting away with it. It has nothing, absolutely ZERO to do with wanting to exact revenge on the terrorists. Honestly, if handing the terrorists a Macy's gift card and a bouqet of flowers would yield sufficient information to prevent them from attacking this country, I would GLADLY and without hesitation trade this approach for waterboarding.
Waterboarding isn't about exacting revenge and punishing these terrorists. It's about stopping them from hurting us, pure and simple.
Spekkio
He bowls overhand.
If I stick an electrode up your ass and hang the other on your testicles to give you some shock treatment, is that torture? Has no long term physical effects, so it must be ok.
Only if you accept the notion that waterboarding is an effective technique for extracting useful information, which is debatable.
Burning someone's testicles and a$$hole would probably have long term effects, but thanks for playing anyways you sicktard
.
Not so much, waterboarding is against the law. It is not used by US law enforcement, who know plenty about interrogation, and information gleaned from the practice cannot be used in US courts. So if it is not torture, why is it not used more widely by people and why did we prosecute Japanese war criminals for waterboarding?
And as Spekkio already pointed out, what says that waterboarding works?
We have successfully prosecuted scores of terrorists, including several Al Qaeda terrorists who were just as bad as those who are in Guantanamo.
I don't think you will find a single person on this board who doesn't want to do as much as possible to protect this country and its citizens. But everything I have read and heard from the experts that know better than anyone on this board is that torture does not work. So why compromise our values and violate our laws over a maybe? It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I think a big part of the argument against is that there is a slippery slope of where in that gray area you draw the line of who is a terrorist- not the simple black and white cases. What about the bratty teenagers who get paid a few bucks to throw rocks at some humvees in order to probe our responses? Or the unwilling suicide bomber who's family is held hostage? Because those things are not proverbial "what ifs" or idle conjecture, and with some luck if you handle cases like those just right you can make a lot of money in the long run. Then again, sometimes those people are perfectly willing, so...
Well, there seem to be two big questions in this thread. The first is which techniques are tactically unproductive and/or counterproductive? The second is which techniques are immoral (and thus strategically unproductive and/or counterproductive)?
I submit a more germane question with a bit of humor- how does one determine who and who does not rate enhanced interrogation techniques? (0:20-0:45 and 0:45-1:00) Apologies to intel folks
It is not against the law under certain specific circumstances. Like, if you are a CIA professional, and the person that you are getting info from is a terrorist, and the president has given you permission (and congress has been briefed and given the go ahead on the procedures).
Other that the former president, vice president, and the CIA? If President Obama was so convinced that it didn't work, why did he retain the right to authorize the technique in the future?
OK, so torture does not work. I'll give you that. I also think that the folks employed at the CIA know a thing or two more than you do about getting quality information out of people. They developed the exact techniques, and put them into action. The CIA is not in the business of doing things that they know will not work. They got the info that they needed so the FACTS are that waterboarding did work. If you want to cling to the idea that "torture does not work" fine. What we did to those guys did work and lives were saved. Must not have been torture. How convenient.
Here's the question that's begging to be asked....and I fully realize that Darth Cheney is a pariah to the MSM. He's also not immune from criticism. But what motivates this man??? Some vindictiveness maybe?? I dunno. I think with all the withering salvos this guy has endured, he must have the skin of a rhino. I think he's writing some memoirs, but does he need any $$??? He's mega rich. He isn't ever running for elected office again. He isn't into chasing interns. Could it be that his pointed criticism of this current administration is based on LOVE of Country and he's scared shitless that the architecture that kept this country sans attack on our soil for 8 years is systematically being dismantled?? As far as PresBO seeking a "middle ground on terror"....that sort of equivocation sounds like "trying to find some moderate Taliban"..... incredible naivet'e IMO.