• Please take a moment and update your account profile. If you have an updated account profile with basic information on why you are on Air Warriors it will help other people respond to your posts. How do you update your profile you ask?

    Go here:

    Edit Account Details and Profile

Hard Power and Soft Power

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
The VPOTUS speech in Munich appeared to go over like a fart in church. Really, zero moral/principled defense of western liberal democracy, but instead browbeating Romania (wut?) for not having a strong democracy. Also, weird anecdotes about someone getting arrested for protesting an abortion clinic. Next, bypass meeting the German chancellor; instead, meet with the AfD party leader...days before a German election.
Maybe it’s time wise old Europe got a ticking off? I haven’t seen much “western liberal democracy” to defend in Western Europe. I mean there are Pakistani child rape gangs throughout England that go unpunished for ideological reasons. Yet, at the same time, if one were to post any anti-Islam words on UK Facebook the police show up at your house and post your name and address. The same country where English veterans were told to put their Union Jacks away during a parade for fear they might offend immigrants. In Germany cars are driving into crowds (we know all about that - New Orleans) and France is boiling with internal tension. All of this is related and is worthy of open and honest discussion. Besides, all of Europe can, in fact, afford to help Ukraine and discuss their own issues, but they must be discussed.

I fear too many people forget the “democracy” side of the discussion and lean toward the meaningless “liberal” cognomen in the discussion. If you imagine that a “liberal democracy” doesn’t need to defend itself internally then you missing half the equation.

I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!” On these very pages I read serious people note that we (NATO) should get involved directly BUT quake in their boots over fear of Russia’s nuclear forces. Russia violated international law in 2014, 2018, and again in 2020 and the not one western country rose to actually defend liberty and democracy in the Ukraine. So, we are only “so much” for defending “liberal western democracy.” Most western nations would sell their liberalism and access to democracy to save their economic status. Europe will watch Ukrainian men and women chopped to bits (with European weapons) yet buy natural gas from Russia - what is worthy of defending in that?

I voted, but I did not vote for Trump (I did not vote for Harris) but I will state one basic fact…the unwashed that many here so easily dismiss as “misinformed” or “uneducated” can see systemic failures with their own eyes - and they demanded change. Even Gen Z college kids can see the obvious, a system that talks over democracy in meaningless tropes but actually fights over keeping the economy in their control. The same is true in Europe - people will demand democracy and freedom but are less tied to long lost concept of “liberalism” that today means nothing of what it originally meant. I imagine that old world labels like “far right” and “far left” are going to die soon, and I hope that (at least in the U.S.) we have moved into a post-party era (where people will vote for their ideas, not a specific party) as hinted by the rise in people registered as independents on voting rolls.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
@taxi1 started this thread to discuss soft power in light the cut of USAID. It now has become a forum for throwing politically and emotionally charged attacks and gotchas at anyone who says something one disagrees with. Should we return to an intellectual and academic discourse I'd be happy to debate. But for now, I'll wait for a new thread to arrive, with a new offering worthy of our collective time for debate.
Phrog is going home and taking his toys with him again. Dude, buck up

@Griz882 obviously not a fan of my western liberal democracy comment. That's fine. "Pakistani rape gangs"? Was this addressed in the UK along political lines? Obviously terrible stuff...should be dealt with like any criminals
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
Phrog is going home and taking his toys with him again. Dude, buck up

@Griz882 obviously not a fan of my western liberal democracy comment. That's fine. "Pakistani rape gangs"? Was this addressed in the UK along political lines? Obviously terrible stuff...should be dealt with like any criminals
BLUF, I’m all for a powerful NATO, but old Europe doesn’t need the U.S. to blow smoke up its ass so it feels good. There are substantial internal issues that need to be addressed in the EU just as there are in the U.S.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!” On these very pages I read serious people note that we (NATO) should get involved directly BUT quake in their boots over fear of Russia’s nuclear forces. Russia violated international law in 2014, 2018, and again in 2020 and the not one western country rose to actually defend liberty and democracy in the Ukraine. So, we are only “so much” for defending “liberal western democracy.” Most western nations would sell their liberalism and access to democracy to save their economic status. Europe will watch Ukrainian men and women chopped to bits (with European weapons) yet buy natural gas from Russia - what is worthy of defending in that?

I voted, but I did not vote for Trump (I did not vote for Harris) but I will state one basic fact…the unwashed that many here so easily dismiss as “misinformed” or “uneducated” can see systemic failures with their own eyes - and they demanded change. Even Gen Z college kids can see the obvious, a system that talks over democracy in meaningless tropes but actually fights over keeping the economy in their control. The same is true in Europe - people will demand democracy and freedom but are less tied to long lost concept of “liberalism” that today means nothing of what it originally meant. I imagine that old world labels like “far right” and “far left” are going to die soon, and I hope that (at least in the U.S.) we have moved into a post-party era (where people will vote for their ideas, not a specific party) as hinted by the rise in people registered as independents on voting rolls.
We didn't ask Ukraine to do anything. Ukraine has been asking to join NATO since the 00s. Originally it was Germany that said no, not Bush or Obama, because Germany thought that war and invoking Article V was inevitable if Ukraine were to be admitted.

2014 caught everyone flat footed, but we provided a lot of support for Ukraine's military build-up from 2014-2020. Continuing to support them is a drop in the bucket of our budget and our international economic power relies heavily on the military security that we can provide our allies and partners and our willingness to use it. However, the concern I get from the Army side is that it's depleting artillery and air defense munitions and we can't build more until like 2029, if ever. And since everyone is convinced China's D-Day is happening in 2027, well, we have to make some tough decisions. No one is going to admit that we're saving our toys for China in a Ukraine policy speech, but that's what's happening. Support for Ukraine would have lasted marginally longer with a Harris administration.

The inability to replenish our munitions is a huge failure of our strategic planning at the highest levels that spans multiple administrations. We spent billions if not trillions on failed platforms and no one bothered to think about the fact that we still need the capability to build things for them to shoot. All the while the general public wants more DOD budget cuts when we're about to get below 3% GDP spending on military. But at least policy makers are paying attention to it now.

It's a fair criticism that our NATO allies aren't pulling their weight in regards to military investments to counter Russian expansionism, and they all have complex domestic issues to tackle. We must rely very heavily on NATO in a potential conflict with PRC because they will be the only defense against Putin's desire to reconstitute the Russian empire while we're busy in the Pacific. Pissing them all off in the first 100 days of the administration is probably not going to have the desired effect.

As for us - we're witnessing the first libertarian administration. Government is bad, tear it all down and return to isolationism.
 
Last edited:

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
Phrog is going home and taking his toys with him again. Dude, buck up
"Dude" this has nothing to do with YOU.
However, your comment exemplifies exactly what I am talking about.
Why am I taking this personally, irrationally and unacademically is because that is what this thread has become, and why I said I'd leave and await another thread.
When one feels they have nothing more to add, or has an opinion about the the course of a thread, are they not allowed to express such?
I clearly stated why I was leaving this thread, and your comment is just an uncalled for personal attack.
I have never, and will never attack any individual here, even if I may disagree strongly about their stance on a subject.
If wanted this level of mundane mudslinging I'd just watch David Muir every night.

So again, I will await a new topic of interest. I have tired of the course of this thread, which does not preclude others from continuing, nor is it "going home and taking his toys with him."
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
"Dude" this has nothing to do with YOU.
However, your comment exemplifies exactly what I am talking about.
Why am I taking this personally, irrationally and unacademically is because that is what this thread has become, and why I said I'd leave and await another thread.
When one feels they have nothing more to add, or has an opinion about the the course of a thread, are they not allowed to express such?
I clearly stated why I was leaving this thread, and your comment is just an uncalled for personal attack.
I have never, and will never attack any individual here, even if I may disagree strongly about their stance on a subject.
If wanted this level of mundane mudslinging I'd just watch David Muir every night.

So again, I will await a new topic of interest. I have tired of the course of this thread, which does not preclude others from continuing, nor is it "going home and taking his toys with him."
I think you're a good person @PhrogPhlyer ...if that makes you feel better. Sometimes threads drift a bit. Hopefully, we can get your input when it comes back in line.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
@taxi1 started this thread to discuss soft power in light the cut of USAID. It now has become a forum for throwing politically and emotionally charged attacks and gotchas at anyone who says something one disagrees with. Should we return to an intellectual and academic discourse I'd be happy to debate. But for now, I'll wait for a new thread to arrive, with a new offering worthy of our collective time for debate.
I honestly don't why you got upset on a topic of hard and soft power WRT recent comments at the Munich Security Conference. Then you referenced David Muir? I don't even know what you're talking about.
 

PhrogPhlyer

Two heads are better than one.
pilot
None
I think you're a good person @PhrogPhlyer ...if that makes you feel better.
Oh thank you, I really needed your validation of my worth so I can now be a fully complete functioning member of your community.
Gee Golly, do I get a participating trophy too?
What the hell does me being a good person or not have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING?
What matters is whether the discourse is intellectually satisfying or not, and for me, and maybe for me only, it was not.
 

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Oh thank you, I really needed your validation of my worth so I can now be a fully complete functioning member of your community.
Gee Golly, do I get a participating trophy too?
What the hell does me being a good person or not have ANYTHING to do with ANYTHING?
What matters is whether the discourse is intellectually satisfying or not, and for me, and maybe for me only, it was not.
None of your statements are intellectually stimulating to be fair.
 

FinkUFreaky

Well-Known Member
pilot

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor

It’s a real thing. The inability to speak on it for fear of being labeled an anti-immigrant racist, though? That’s also real.
I couldn't access the link bc no sub to NYtimes. Does this also apply to major churches here in the US?
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
Maybe it’s time wise old Europe got a ticking off? I haven’t seen much “western liberal democracy” to defend in Western Europe. I mean there are Pakistani child rape gangs throughout England that go unpunished for ideological reasons. Yet, at the same time, if one were to post any anti-Islam words on UK Facebook the police show up at your house and post your name and address. The same country where English veterans were told to put their Union Jacks away during a parade for fear they might offend immigrants. In Germany cars are driving into crowds (we know all about that - New Orleans) and France is boiling with internal tension. All of this is related and is worthy of open and honest discussion. Besides, all of Europe can, in fact, afford to help Ukraine and discuss their own issues, but they must be discussed.

I fear too many people forget the “democracy” side of the discussion and lean toward the meaningless “liberal” cognomen in the discussion. If you imagine that a “liberal democracy” doesn’t need to defend itself internally then you missing half the equation.

I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!” On these very pages I read serious people note that we (NATO) should get involved directly BUT quake in their boots over fear of Russia’s nuclear forces. Russia violated international law in 2014, 2018, and again in 2020 and the not one western country rose to actually defend liberty and democracy in the Ukraine. So, we are only “so much” for defending “liberal western democracy.” Most western nations would sell their liberalism and access to democracy to save their economic status. Europe will watch Ukrainian men and women chopped to bits (with European weapons) yet buy natural gas from Russia - what is worthy of defending in that?

I voted, but I did not vote for Trump (I did not vote for Harris) but I will state one basic fact…the unwashed that many here so easily dismiss as “misinformed” or “uneducated” can see systemic failures with their own eyes - and they demanded change. Even Gen Z college kids can see the obvious, a system that talks over democracy in meaningless tropes but actually fights over keeping the economy in their control. The same is true in Europe - people will demand democracy and freedom but are less tied to long lost concept of “liberalism” that today means nothing of what it originally meant. I imagine that old world labels like “far right” and “far left” are going to die soon, and I hope that (at least in the U.S.) we have moved into a post-party era (where people will vote for their ideas, not a specific party) as hinted by the rise in people registered as independents on voting rolls.
Very fair points my friend! most formidably your comments regarding Russia.
 
Top