Hard Power and Soft Power

[Spekkio]

True, but at the end of the day they did what was right for the Country. They didn't use words like partisan or bipartisan. They spoke to the strength of a free people over tyranny. They admitted they were not perfect; but holding the county together, forging the colonies into a single "more perfect union" and not allowing a civil war to fracture that union, was what mattered.

You got some rose tinted glasses on there if you think that our politics were more civil and agreeable to the greater good in 1825 vs. 2025.

The Civil War didn't just happen. It was due to decades of fighting over slavery, whether to admit new states into the union as free or slave states, and the role of the federal vs. state governments. And then, after it was all over, the President who was commander-in-chief got shot, the next guy let all the traiters back into the government and black Americans paid the price for that decision for the next 125 years.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

if you think that our politics were more civil and agreeable to the greater good in 1825 vs. 2025.

I never said such. What I did say, was at the end of the day our leaders focused on country, not politics. Was it always the right decision, or the best in the long run, that is always a matter of discussion. What I will continue to state is the the survival of the nation WAS a driving factor through all these years. Our nation has taken a secondary role to ones party. And that is not a good thing should we wish to be around for another 250 yrs.

 

[Spekkio]

The other thing is that the Russians probably view Westernized, liberal democracies that even if not officially part of NATO are still friendly with NATO, as close to the same thing. A liberal democracy usually means friendliness to the West, and hence Western military relations and training and equipping to be interoperable with NATO forces, and by being a democracy, a government where potentially another Hitler could take power. So any such nations are a threat and need to have a pro-Russian authoritarian government installed. As such, any liberal democracy former Soviet or Warsaw Pact countries that were not part of NATO it would only be a matter of time until the Russians would attack again.

A major event that kicked off the Cold War was U.S. economic aid to Poland post WWII. Stalin could not accept that the US position was rebuilding Europe for the sake of having an economic prosperous region, we had to have ulterior motives against the Soviet Union. And thus the phrase 'capitalist imperialism' was born.

Putin's not communist, but he's cut from the same cloth in believing that it's not possible for two countries to have mutually beneficial agreements built on trust. There is a subjugator and a subject.

 

[Spekkio]

I never said such. What I did say, was at the end of the day our leaders focused on country, not politics. Was it always the right decision, or the best in the long run, that is always a matter of discussion. What I will continue to state is the the survival of the nation WAS a driving factor through all these years. Our nation has taken a secondary role to ones party. And that is not a good thing should we wish to be around for another 250 yrs.

You need to revisit Henry Clay's tenure as Speaker of the House.

 

[robav8r]

He is what used to be called a 'fellow traveler' of Russia, not an explicit agent but one who agrees and facilitates their point of view. The suggestion that we or our European allies are somehow at fault in any significant way for Russia's invasion of Ukraine is nothing more than excusing an abuser of their responsibility, "They deserved the beating because they were...too mouthy/wore the wrong clothes/looked at me funny, etc".

@Flash i’m convinced more and more that you are NOT a flaming liberal but rather a hard corps member (at some level) of the CIA. 😀

In all seriousness, what is your assessment and analysis of President Obama’s and Victoria Nulands involvement in the first invasion of Ukraine?

 

[Flash]

@Flash i’m convinced more and more that you are NOT a flaming liberal but rather a hard corps member (at some level) of the CIA. 😀

I’m a patriot who believes in freedom, democracy and standing up to those who threaten them. That includes autocrats, and wannabe ones.

In all seriousness, what is your assessment and analysis of President Obama’s and Victoria Nulands involvement in the first invasion of Ukraine?

I don’t think the administration was forceful enough in their response at the time. What few leaders realized until it was too late that Putin only responds to force, not diplomacy.

As for Nuland, I find it a bit odd that certain folks are so fixated on her. While an influential diplomat she wasn’t some sort of Svengali-like figure pulling strings in the background to somehow control Ukraine’s destiny. She was doing her job as a diplomat for her country. I think Russian propagandists and their stooges probably don’t like her since she was good at her job. It probably didn’t help she’s of partial Russian Jewish heritage, and a woman. As pathetic as that is, those sorts of things still matters to the Russians.

That ties into my continued amazement at folks who defend Russia and Putin, as though they are some sort of paragons of traditional values and culture. Russia is a shithole country with an economy dominated by oil with little else to offer other than corruption, which is endemic and touches every facet of life. Putin is nothing more than a thin-skinned coward who is overseeing his country’s continued rapid decline while he gleefully kills any opponent he can, domestic or foreign. Little wonder the population could decline by half at the end of the century (already a quarter of the way there!) if the trends in emigration and birth rates continue.

 

[PhrogLoop]

Miscues happen, but this is part of a broader trend in the way that Trump runs his administration.

You have to think that America's policy on Ukraine's entry into NATO had to be a significant talking point between the President and the Secretary of Defense before the Secretary of Defense travels to a NATO summit to negotiate on the administration's behalf.

Yes, I think normally that would be true. Honest question, I’m not actually sure of the timeline here. Did SECDEF make these comments before or after Trump and Putin talked for 90 minutes this week?

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

You need to revisit Henry Clay's tenure as Speaker of the House.

If you are referring to his ability to compromise, then he is a shining example of my premise. He had the ability helped hold the country together, and even delayed to start of the civil war to keep communications free and open within the House. He should be looked upon with respect and an example for today's legislators.

 

[Spekkio]

If you are referring to his ability to compromise, then he is a shining example of my premise. He had the ability helped hold the country together, and even delayed to start of the civil war to keep communications free and open within the House. He should be looked upon with respect and an example for today's legislators.

I'm referring to his ability to consolidate power and influence in the federal government to advance his personal agenda, which included a costly war with England that he personally orchestrated.

It's been 25 years since I took college US history where my professor said "you're going to forget 85% of what you learned." And while I can't tell you what the Taft, Garfield, or Arthur administrations did, I know that Clay was a shrewd mofo.

 

[Random8145]

I don’t think the administration was forceful enough in their response at the time. What few leaders realized until it was too late that Putin only responds to force, not diplomacy.

I would say many conservative/GOP leaders at the time recognized he would only respond to force. I remember talk about Putin among the GOP during the 2008 race and during the 2012 race, Mitt Romney had a hard line view on Russia.

 

[JTS11]

The Russians are making miniscule territorial gains right now with UKR holding a tiny bit of Kursk territory. RUS economy is circling the drain...why take any foots/levers off their necks?

The VPOTUS speech in Munich appeared to go over like a fart in church. Really, zero moral/principled defense of western liberal democracy, but instead browbeating Romania (wut?) for not having a strong democracy. Also, weird anecdotes about someone getting arrested for protesting an abortion clinic. Next, bypass meeting the German chancellor; instead, meet with the AfD party leader...days before a German election.

 

[JTS11]

I'll add (@Flash mentioned it), there's been a weird obsession on the so-called Evangelical right that Putin and Russia are some kind of preservers of traditional values. And they use this talking point and pay media influencers in the West to push it. It's all BS. Church attendance is pretty low in RUS. They're more concerned with having working water/sewage systems that their govt can't provide, except for the wealthy areas of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

I mean Iran is mean to gays as well.

 

[Faded Float Coat]

The VPOTUS speech in Munich appeared to go over like a fart in church. Really, zero moral/principled defense of western liberal democracy, but instead browbeating Romania (wut?) for not having a strong democracy. Also, weird anecdotes about someone getting arrested for protesting an abortion clinic. Next, bypass meeting the German chancellor; instead, meet with the AfD party leader...days before a German election.

This is not a political or partisan judgement, just a contextual one: they (VPOTUS and SECDEF) are in way over their heads.

 

[Spekkio]

This is not a political or partisan judgement, just a contextual one: they (VPOTUS and SECDEF) are in way over their heads.

This is what happens when the administration is full of inexperienced amateurs because no one with a real resume wants to be associated with Donald Trump anymore. And it's not because Trump can't judge people; his first cabinet picks in his first term were all top-notch.

 

[PhrogPhlyer]

@taxi1 started this thread to discuss soft power in light the cut of USAID. It now has become a forum for throwing politically and emotionally charged attacks and gotchas at anyone who says something one disagrees with. Should we return to an intellectual and academic discourse I'd be happy to debate. But for now, I'll wait for a new thread to arrive, with a new offering worthy of our collective time for debate.