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Hard Power and Soft Power

JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!”
UKR needs to make that decision, not US pols with little/no skin in the game. This is existential to them. Would be cool if more of us supported their effort on moral grounds. Just my 2 cents.
 

cfam

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Maybe it’s time wise old Europe got a ticking off? I haven’t seen much “western liberal democracy” to defend in Western Europe. I mean there are Pakistani child rape gangs throughout England that go unpunished for ideological reasons. Yet, at the same time, if one were to post any anti-Islam words on UK Facebook the police show up at your house and post your name and address. The same country where English veterans were told to put their Union Jacks away during a parade for fear they might offend immigrants. In Germany cars are driving into crowds (we know all about that - New Orleans) and France is boiling with internal tension. All of this is related and is worthy of open and honest discussion. Besides, all of Europe can, in fact, afford to help Ukraine and discuss their own issues, but they must be discussed.

I fear too many people forget the “democracy” side of the discussion and lean toward the meaningless “liberal” cognomen in the discussion. If you imagine that a “liberal democracy” doesn’t need to defend itself internally then you missing half the equation.

I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!” On these very pages I read serious people note that we (NATO) should get involved directly BUT quake in their boots over fear of Russia’s nuclear forces. Russia violated international law in 2014, 2018, and again in 2020 and the not one western country rose to actually defend liberty and democracy in the Ukraine. So, we are only “so much” for defending “liberal western democracy.” Most western nations would sell their liberalism and access to democracy to save their economic status. Europe will watch Ukrainian men and women chopped to bits (with European weapons) yet buy natural gas from Russia - what is worthy of defending in that?

I voted, but I did not vote for Trump (I did not vote for Harris) but I will state one basic fact…the unwashed that many here so easily dismiss as “misinformed” or “uneducated” can see systemic failures with their own eyes - and they demanded change. Even Gen Z college kids can see the obvious, a system that talks over democracy in meaningless tropes but actually fights over keeping the economy in their control. The same is true in Europe - people will demand democracy and freedom but are less tied to long lost concept of “liberalism” that today means nothing of what it originally meant. I imagine that old world labels like “far right” and “far left” are going to die soon, and I hope that (at least in the U.S.) we have moved into a post-party era (where people will vote for their ideas, not a specific party) as hinted by the rise in people registered as independents on voting rolls.
I don’t take issue with any of your points, but parts of Vance’s speech were directly pointed at the German political system and took issue with the firewall against the AFD.

In that sense, he is sorely misinformed. There’s a reason portions of the AFD are labeled as extremist groups and that the mainstream parties refuse to work with the AFD as a whole, and it’s not because their views are just “far right”. When your party espouses views that are literally aligned with the Nazis, then it’s far beyond a discussion of issues with immigration or liberal versus conservative.

On a separate note, our politicians would lose their shit if any political figure from another country weighed in on our elections to the point that Musk and Vance have in Germany.
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
It is hard to see how the cutoff in foreign aid won’t lead to a loss in influence, especially in Africa where I focused on for 4 years including a deployment.

Article on the aid cuts…I’m on the hunt for ones talking about the overlap in aid and soft power.

 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
This one has a long section about how Latin American countries are glad to see the money go away.


MEXICO CITY — Some Latin American countries — long-suspicious of U.S. motives in the region — have, on the other hand, welcomed Trump’s moves on USAID.

Both the Salvadorean and Mexican governments have complained bitterly that U.S.-funded journalism and human rights outfits that have uncovered corruption and human rights abuses are meddling in their internal affairs.

…None of this is surprising to those who watch the region closely.

“Not one bit, no,” says Jake Johnston, director of International Research at the Center for Economic and Policy Research. “These sort of democracy- promotion things, which are political interventionism in sovereign countries, it is a part of what USAID does.”

Johnston says USAID has created toxic dependencies and does need an overhaul — but what Trump is simply trying to destroy it.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
UKR needs to make that decision, not US pols with little/no skin in the game. This is existential to them. Would be cool if more of us supported their effort on moral grounds. Just my 2 cents.
I disagree. First, we do have skin in the game…


Second, we either believe (as did JFK) that we must “bear any burden” to protect democracy or we don’t. I was going to bring this up to @sevenhelmet asking himself to stay with us because this debate (Hard Power and Soft Power) has indeed stayed on course exposing that the U.S. has neither a real “soft power” strategy or an effective “hard power” end game. We seem perversely stuck in some post-Vietnam “middle power” game of nearly endless conflict with no concept of strategic victory. It’s odd….when some people talk of the recent “long war” they think 2001 to about 2020. It is more like 1979 to Present. That’s a forty five year long war with no stated end goal. About the only thing we accomplished was getting Saddam hooked to a rope.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
It is hard to see how the cutoff in foreign aid won’t lead to a loss in influence, especially in Africa where I focused on for 4 years including a deployment.

Article on the aid cuts…I’m on the hunt for ones talking about the overlap in aid and soft power.

Who said we were cutting off foreign aid? It is paused while USAID functions are moved to State but “cut off” is a bit of a stretch.
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
When your party espouses views that are literally aligned with the Nazis, then it’s far beyond a discussion of issues with immigration or liberal versus conservative.
The Nazi angle is worn to near meaninglessness - In fact I’m more concerned that grad students from Harvard, Yale, and Columbia will move to round up Jews long before the AfD gains any power. I am no fan of AfD and I doubt they’ll ever gain a strong majority in Germany, but I oppose them more for their desire to be closer to Russia than any Nazi adjacent rhetoric.

On a separate note, our politicians would lose their shit if any political figure from another country weighed in on our elections to the point that Musk and Vance have in Germany.
This is true - maybe we are entering a new era of realpolitik?
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Who said we were cutting off foreign aid? It is paused while USAID functions are moved to State but “cut off” is a bit of a stretch.
"Cut off" is exactly what has happened. Will it come back after 90 days? Maybe. But for huge amounts, it is flat-out gone. Even if the money was not pulled, the people who were in charge of distributing it are gone and aren't coming back.

The courts told him to not cut off the funds...

Judge Amir Ali wrote in his order that Trump Administration officials "have not offered any explanation for why a blanket suspension of all congressionally appropriated foreign aid, which set off a shockwave and upended" contracts with thousands of nonprofit groups, businesses and others "was a rational precursor to reviewing programs."

But Trump still wins, because he has fired the people who distribute the funds...

In the wake of the Trump administration's stop-work order, thousands of staff and contractors have been fired or let go from USAID and locked out of its computer systems. "So it's hard to understand who's going to actually turn the financing tap back on," Schawlbe says.

 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
"Cut off" is exactly what has happened. Will it come back after 90 days? Maybe. But for huge amounts, it is flat-out gone. Even if the money was not pulled, the people who were in charge of distributing it are gone and aren't coming back.

The courts told him to not cut off the funds...

Judge Amir Ali wrote in his order that Trump Administration officials "have not offered any explanation for why a blanket suspension of all congressionally appropriated foreign aid, which set off a shockwave and upended" contracts with thousands of nonprofit groups, businesses and others "was a rational precursor to reviewing programs."

But Trump still wins, because he has fired the people who distribute the funds...

In the wake of the Trump administration's stop-work order, thousands of staff and contractors have been fired or let go from USAID and locked out of its computer systems. "So it's hard to understand who's going to actually turn the financing tap back on," Schawlbe says.

So, not cut off. If we “lose the world” over a 90 day reset of funding things like “being LGBTQ in the Caribbean” or “to foster a “united and equal queer-feminist discourse in Albanian society” we never had that much power in it.

I will agree that Trump’s firing have been scattered, mostly thoughtless, and not well planned…but I believe we can recover from the change.
 

robav8r

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
Maybe it’s time wise old Europe got a ticking off? I haven’t seen much “western liberal democracy” to defend in Western Europe. I mean there are Pakistani child rape gangs throughout England that go unpunished for ideological reasons. Yet, at the same time, if one were to post any anti-Islam words on UK Facebook the police show up at your house and post your name and address. The same country where English veterans were told to put their Union Jacks away during a parade for fear they might offend immigrants. In Germany cars are driving into crowds (we know all about that - New Orleans) and France is boiling with internal tension. All of this is related and is worthy of open and honest discussion. Besides, all of Europe can, in fact, afford to help Ukraine and discuss their own issues, but they must be discussed.

I fear too many people forget the “democracy” side of the discussion and lean toward the meaningless “liberal” cognomen in the discussion. If you imagine that a “liberal democracy” doesn’t need to defend itself internally then you missing half the equation.

I believe Russia is an absolute enemy in this world, but at the same time we can’t keep asking Ukraine, with a fraction of Russia’s population to continue a meat-grinder war just to show Russia “we mean it!” On these very pages I read serious people note that we (NATO) should get involved directly BUT quake in their boots over fear of Russia’s nuclear forces. Russia violated international law in 2014, 2018, and again in 2020 and the not one western country rose to actually defend liberty and democracy in the Ukraine. So, we are only “so much” for defending “liberal western democracy.” Most western nations would sell their liberalism and access to democracy to save their economic status. Europe will watch Ukrainian men and women chopped to bits (with European weapons) yet buy natural gas from Russia - what is worthy of defending in that?

I voted, but I did not vote for Trump (I did not vote for Harris) but I will state one basic fact…the unwashed that many here so easily dismiss as “misinformed” or “uneducated” can see systemic failures with their own eyes - and they demanded change. Even Gen Z college kids can see the obvious, a system that talks over democracy in meaningless tropes but actually fights over keeping the economy in their control. The same is true in Europe - people will demand democracy and freedom but are less tied to long lost concept of “liberalism” that today means nothing of what it originally meant. I imagine that old world labels like “far right” and “far left” are going to die soon, and I hope that (at least in the U.S.) we have moved into a post-party era (where people will vote for their ideas, not a specific party) as hinted by the rise in people registered as independents on voting rolls.
The CIA has really gotten their moneys worth from Mockingbird . . . .
 

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
So, not cut off. If we “lose the world” over a 90 day reset of funding things like “being LGBTQ in the Caribbean” or “to foster a “united and equal queer-feminist discourse in Albanian society” we never had that much power in it.
You think that is where all or most of the money was going? Data to back that up?
 

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
UKR needs to make that decision, not US pols with little/no skin in the game. This is existential to them. Would be cool if more of us supported their effort on moral grounds. Just my 2 cents.
Is it time for a Grand European Army?
 

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
You think that is where all or most of the money was going? Data to back that up?
Of course not, but let’s be honest…even a 90 day reset of rice from the U.S.) our primary gift, will not cause a serious dent in how people feel about the U.S. and if it does…we weren’t doing it that well. An example being the over $5.5 Billion spent on Palestine…a place where the U.S. isn’t especially loved despite our best efforts.
 
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