Hard Power and Soft Power

[robav8r]

There are several ways the president is within his powers to involve Elon Musk in reviewing government operations:

1. Presidential Advisory Committees. The president can establish advisory committees (DOGE) or task forces under the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) to provide recommendations on policy matters.

2. Special Government Employee (SGE) Status. The president can appoint Elon Musk as a Special Government Employee, allowing him to work temporarily for the government in an advisory or investigative capacity.

3. Presidential Executive Order. While the president can issue an executive order directing an agency to conduct an audit, the actual auditing would still need to be done by legally authorized entities like the Government Accountability Office (GAO) or Inspectors General.

 

[number9]

I am yet to see DOGE cite an actual example of corruption or fraud. Everything so far is just, "We're spending money on stuff that we're ideologically opposed to".

The fact that they're using pre-existing open-source government data to "find" this is both hilarious and ironic.

 

[sevenhelmet]

There are several ways the president is within his powers to involve Elon Musk in reviewing government operations:

1. Presidential Advisory Committees. The president can establish advisory committees (DOGE) or task forces under the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) to provide recommendations on policy matters.

2. Special Government Employee (SGE) Status. The president can appoint Elon Musk as a Special Government Employee, allowing him to work temporarily for the government in an advisory or investigative capacity.

3. Presidential Executive Order. While the president can issue an executive order directing an agency to conduct an audit, the actual auditing would still need to be done by legally authorized entities like the Government Accountability Office (GAO) or Inspectors General.

All of those appear to be valid points.

However, I do not see any part of that which justifies or legally grants Musk authority to fire people and shut down entire government agencies.

That’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and is a violation of legal frameworks that are designed specifically guard against that kind of behavior. To say nothing of the myriad conflicts-of-interest created by having a multi-billion dollar contracted CEO in that position.

Ideological alignment and popularity are no excuse for illegal and unethical behavior.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I guess my question is why didn't this happen, or was it a priority, under 45...and now it is. They're all in.

Because they- by their own admission- are flooding the zone. While we are arguing the merits of USAID, they will be running down the hallways with an axe, swinging at other things.

Don’t be distracted, and don’t believe them when they say they have the authority. If they aren’t “showing their work”, there’s good reason for that.

 

[ea6bflyr]

DJT is not taking a salary (45 or 47).

According to the document we all swore to protect against all enemies…the president cannot refuse his compensation (salary). So would you like to re-state your original comment?

if you receive money, then donate it….you are still receiving a salary. So your statement is a bit disingenuous.

 

[Spekkio]

There are several ways the president is within his powers to involve Elon Musk in reviewing government operations:

1. Presidential Advisory Committees. The president can establish advisory committees (DOGE) or task forces under the Federal Advisory Committee Act (FACA) to provide recommendations on policy matters.

2. Special Government Employee (SGE) Status. The president can appoint Elon Musk as a Special Government Employee, allowing him to work temporarily for the government in an advisory or investigative capacity.

3. Presidential Executive Order. While the president can issue an executive order directing an agency to conduct an audit, the actual auditing would still need to be done by legally authorized entities like the Government Accountability Office (GAO) or Inspectors General.

It's simpler than that ...

You can write a thought provoking editorial to the Washington Post and the President can decide to implement your advice. So can any other private citizen.

Musk is volunteering his time at this point, so he doesn't need to fall under any of the above.

 

[Spekkio]

We need to get past the “mandate” line of thinking. That is not an actual thing, it’s a cheap trick to justify means that are objectively illegal.

Alarmist? Fine. If it gets people to pay the fuck attention, so be it.

Yep, world is falling because a President is revisiting the argument over his ability to slash his own executive agencies when he thinks they are worthless.

Only thing we're missing is Congressmen beating each other with canes.

 

[sevenhelmet]

View attachment 41847

Yep, world is falling because a President is revisiting the argument over his ability to slash his own executive agencies when he thinks they are worthless.

Only thing we're missing is Congressmen beating each other with canes.

That argument is on its way to be tested in the courts. If found wanting (which I believe it will be), do you expect this administration to back down?

Would you condone these methods if used by another party to which you were less ideologically aligned?

 

[gparks1989]

What'll become interesting is if DOGE's efforts disrupt any of the above payments, whether on purpose or otherwise.

Also Harry Bolz? YGTBFSM

 

[Spekkio]

That argument is on its way to be tested in the courts. If found wanting (which I believe it will be), do you expect this administration to back down?

Would you condone these methods if used by another party to which you were less ideologically aligned?

Trump's not my man.

He wouldn't be the first president to fight past court decisions, or did you not understand the political cartoon reference? Already forgotten the back and forth over Biden's student loan forgiveness plans?

Trump's delivery is hyperbolic and bombastic, but he hasn't done anything radical.

 

[robav8r]

According to the document we all swore to protect against all enemies…the president cannot refuse his compensation (salary). So would you like to re-state your original comment?

if you receive money, then donate it….you are still receiving a salary. So your statement is a bit disingenuous.

Yep, I was wrong and you are correct.

As of February 2025, President Donald Trump is receiving the standard presidential salary of $400,000 per year. During his first term (2017–2021), he pledged to donate his salary to various federal departments and causes. However, his 2020 tax return showed zero charitable donations, leading to questions about whether he fulfilled this promise.


There is currently no public information indicating that President Trump has committed to donating his salary during his second term.

 

[robav8r]

All of those appear to be valid points.

However, I do not see any part of that which justifies or legally grants Musk authority to fire people and shut down entire government agencies.

That’s throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and is a violation of legal frameworks that are designed specifically guard against that kind of behavior. To say nothing of the myriad conflicts-of-interest created by having a multi-billion dollar contracted CEO in that position.

Ideological alignment and popularity are no excuse for illegal and unethical behavior.

I have read nothing that suggests Musk and DOGE are the ones actually firing people or stopping/reducing payments from the various agencies. Please share if you have any accurate data on who is actually acting on the Musk/DOGE discoveries . . .

 

[sevenhelmet]

Trump's not my man.

Nor mine.

He wouldn't be the first president to fight past court decisions. Already forgotten the back and forth over Biden's student loan forgiveness plans?

Trump's delivery is hyperbolic and bombastic, but he hasn't done anything radical.

I disagree with your last statement- I think this incursion by Musk into government agencies is exactly that- radical, and illegal. His methods and level of access make it highly improbable that laws have not been broken.

For that matter, Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan was also illegal. I spoke out against that on another platform for similar reasons, and was vociferously argued with, called names, and blocked by multiple people.

I would love for us to live in a world where this kind of overreach did not happen. But it does, and with regularity- and it’s getting worse. I view Trump and Musk as symptoms of a growing cancer in government and politics. This is supposed to be a Constitutional Republic. Not a kingdom, plutocracy, or techno-feudalist state.

 

[sevenhelmet]

I have read nothing that suggests Musk and DOGE are the ones actually firing people or stopping/reducing payments from the various agencies. Please share if you have any accurate data on who is actually acting on the Musk/DOGE discoveries . . .

You make a good point, one which I have been considering as I read about all of this.

The firings- despite being in Musk’s prose and having his grubby fingerprints all over them- appear to be coming from the Trump administration, at POTUS order. However, similar to previous administrations, I think that order itself is an overreach- buoyed by team elephant’s simple majority in Congress. The latter is abdicating their authority, throwing the concept of checks and balances further out of whack. Leaving only the courts.

The MAGA faction is attacking with all the “muzzle velocity” they can, knowing full well they will be challenged, and have about 100 days to act on Project 2025 before it’s time to get ready for the mid-terms.

What I am truly curious about is whether at some point they will openly defy the courts. I believe Musk has demonstrated he is crazy enough. Whether his boss also will be is less clear. Popularity and the stock market may determine much of that.

 

[Spekkio]

Nor mine.

I disagree with your last statement- I think this incursion by Musk into government agencies is exactly that- radical, and illegal. His methods and level of access make it highly improbable that laws have not been broken.

Except Musk hasn't made an incursion into anything. He's made a bunch of recommendations. The President is welcome to listen to any and all private citizens.

If your concern is that he has undue influence because of big pockets and some kind of corrupt funding line, then that has yet to be proven.

What I am truly curious about is whether at some point they will openly defy the courts. I believe Musk has demonstrated he is crazy enough. Whether his boss also will be is less clear. Popularity and the stock market may determine much of that.

I think the long-game is that he shuts it all down while Congress develops legislation in the background to be worked into the next appropriations bill... so by the time a court order comes around, the next appropriations bill will be due and USAID will be either gutted or used as a bargaining chip for other GOP initiatives (perhaps increased funding for border patrol).

It's a lot easier to turn off funding for an existing agency than to turn it on for a non-existant one.

The other piece of legislation that Trump is setting up bargaining chips for is the TCJA expiration. There's a lot in there that he'll want to make permanent.

Chris Christie's interview with Jon Stewart was inisghtful to Trump's mindset. "Just do it, and by the time the courts get around to stopping you you'll already be out of office."