Yeah, I saw that area. Still have to do some more reading, but it'll have to wait till I finish the FAA exam on Wed.
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- Thread starter fc2spyguy
- Start date
Yeah, I saw that area. Still have to do some more reading, but it'll have to wait till I finish the FAA exam on Wed.
Who the F pissed off the Flight Management folks? When I went through it was phone muster only during IFS . . .
I am not Navy, so I have no idea what you guys do with Flight Management while in IFS.
What I was referring to was the current policy is that you physically muster with IFS on days you don't have an event. This apparently applies even if you take no-cost TAD to Eglin. What's really fun is having a night flight, getting home at 2am, and then going to muster at 0700 because you get the next day off the flight schedule.
Marine then? Who pissed off the Senior Marine? When I was there it was phone tree only unless we pissed them off. I would ask about that, at the least its an ORM nightmare and you are merely acting as a good safety Officer.
Talk to someone about it, I bet they will understand some of it and you may get out of some days. Put it this way, if your command requires you to be there at 0700, knowing that you got on deck at 0200 and you have an accident, its their a$$.
As my CO puts it..."I would fire me..."
Igot it
OK guys, you are all getting screwed and no you do not have to suck it up. I have read this entire thread plus I have an interest in this situation which is both personal and professional. I may be retired but I am not dead and I've only been away for a year or so. Because of all of that I got it and I mean I GOT IT!
I have done a good bit of research and between the JFTR and the MILPERSMAN, I've got what I believe is the ammunition to get this fixed one way or the other. You are getting screwed and either viable Government transportation must be provided to you or you must be paid for your travel. It will be easy enough to debunk the idea that 2 vans can be construed to be considered "Government Transportation Provided or Available", not for 120 guys! Moving on, the MILPERSMAN is specific in what it says:
Section 1320-080: 1.a Original written orders issued by competent authority are required for official travel and for reimbursement of expenses incident thereto, except as provided in Joint Federal Travel Regulations, volume 1 and Navy Travel Instructions for members in the special category of duty with, or under training for, the Military Airlift Command, Marine Corps Transport Squadrons, or Fleet Tactical Support Squadrons, while on duty away from their permanent stations.
1.e. Commands should not direct members to perform travel on official Navy business without furnishing necessary transportation or without wording the orders to provide for reimbursement of transportation expenses. When travel may be desirable from the Navy's viewpoint but cannot be justified sufficiently as official Navy business to warrant the expenditure of limited travel funds, or when a member requests administrative absence for purposes specified elsewhere in this manual, any command which has authority to issue temporary additional duty orders may write an "authorization" permitting the member addressed to travel at no expense to the government.
Section 1320-314 further states:
7. Permissive Travel Authorizations
a. Commands authorized to issue TEMADD orders may write an "authorization" permitting members under their command to perform travel at no expense to the government if TEMADD is not in the public interest to a degree that will justify expenditure of government funds. MILPERSMAN 1320-080 refers.
b. Shortage of TEMADD or training funds is not a justifiable reason for granting permissive TEMADD. Permissive travel authorizations will not be issued in connection with official Navy business or training. Such travel will be covered by a directive type order providing for all of the appropriate travel expenses authorized by NAVSO P-6034-1.((Don't sweat this NAVSO stuff, you"re covered)
Anyway I don't want to cut and paste a lot of stuff, suffice it to say the regs are in place to make a good run at making life better and getting you guys reimbursed. I love taking on the BS, did it when I was active, why stop now. I am very confident that my efforts will pay off, just give me a couple of weeks, nothing moves fast.
But in the meantime....
Hey e6bflyer, why don't you call your compadre down at NAS Pensacola and have him do the right thing and take care of these budding Aviators instead of just causing them pain. Don't try and fake that you don't know him, he flew E-6B's like you apparently have and your community is not big enough to "hide in plain sight".
OK guys, you are all getting screwed and no you do not have to suck it up. I have read this entire thread plus I have an interest in this situation which is both personal and professional. I may be retired but I am not dead and I've only been away for a year or so. Because of all of that I got it and I mean I GOT IT!
I have done a good bit of research and between the JFTR and the MILPERSMAN, I've got what I believe is the ammunition to get this fixed one way or the other. You are getting screwed and either viable Government transportation must be provided to you or you must be paid for your travel. It will be easy enough to debunk the idea that 2 vans can be construed to be considered "Government Transportation Provided or Available", not for 120 guys! Moving on, the MILPERSMAN is specific in what it says:
Section 1320-080: 1.a Original written orders issued by competent authority are required for official travel and for reimbursement of expenses incident thereto, except as provided in Joint Federal Travel Regulations, volume 1 and Navy Travel Instructions for members in the special category of duty with, or under training for, the Military Airlift Command, Marine Corps Transport Squadrons, or Fleet Tactical Support Squadrons, while on duty away from their permanent stations.
1.e. Commands should not direct members to perform travel on official Navy business without furnishing necessary transportation or without wording the orders to provide for reimbursement of transportation expenses. When travel may be desirable from the Navy's viewpoint but cannot be justified sufficiently as official Navy business to warrant the expenditure of limited travel funds, or when a member requests administrative absence for purposes specified elsewhere in this manual, any command which has authority to issue temporary additional duty orders may write an "authorization" permitting the member addressed to travel at no expense to the government.
Section 1320-314 further states:
7. Permissive Travel Authorizations
a. Commands authorized to issue TEMADD orders may write an "authorization" permitting members under their command to perform travel at no expense to the government if TEMADD is not in the public interest to a degree that will justify expenditure of government funds. MILPERSMAN 1320-080 refers.
b. Shortage of TEMADD or training funds is not a justifiable reason for granting permissive TEMADD. Permissive travel authorizations will not be issued in connection with official Navy business or training. Such travel will be covered by a directive type order providing for all of the appropriate travel expenses authorized by NAVSO P-6034-1.((Don't sweat this NAVSO stuff, you"re covered)
Anyway I don't want to cut and paste a lot of stuff, suffice it to say the regs are in place to make a good run at making life better and getting you guys reimbursed. I love taking on the BS, did it when I was active, why stop now. I am very confident that my efforts will pay off, just give me a couple of weeks, nothing moves fast.
But in the meantime....
Hey e6bflyer, why don't you call your compadre down at NAS Pensacola and have him do the right thing and take care of these budding Aviators instead of just causing them pain. Don't try and fake that you don't know him, he flew E-6B's like you apparently have and your community is not big enough to "hide in plain sight".
Oh, I know him alright, and we go back even further than TACAMO. I know it is hard to believe based on the rep that he has with SNAs, but if there is one dude who cares about the little guy getting screwed over, it is him. The problem is, I am not the one getting screwed, so my care factor is about nil. I just hate to see all 150 guys complaining at the same time without taking the initiative to do anything about it. Hell, you have done more work than 99% of those guys. If someone who has done the legwork needs my help to get in the front door, send me a P.M. and I will see what I can do. Otherwise, I have my full time job, kids, and post-secondary education keeping my plate pretty full.
Just thinking aloud here, but what if you did IFS at Quantico, and drove to Manassas from the BOQ? Since we are now in a different command, is there anything we can do besides just claiming it on taxes? We technically did not get any orders (TDY or otherwise) telling us to do IFS. The only official orders we had were to PCS to Pensacola. There was no government transportation available.
That's the problem
As far as I can tell with the research I have done it is improper for any command to send you to any activity on "official Navy business" and not pay you travel, if they expect you to use your own car. Granted in my 25 years I went and did plenty of one or two day even week long schools, conferences, yadda yadda, and used my car but these were in the local area NOT 50 miles or more away and not for 20 or 30 days. The fact that you were not issued any TAD orders is another improper aspect of this entire evolution, you should have been, and offering you no cost orders is crap also becuz it specifically says that those are for use when the activity is not really "official Navy business". As far as I can tell the way they administer the IFS program is in violation of a lot of stuff, I can't find anything that allows them to get around it Personally I want to believe the CO doesn't know that the situation is what it is, but I find that hard to believe too and that is not a good thing, but if someone is willing to take them on, and I am, I think it can be improved. I realize that it might be daunting to you guys, there is always that lingering apprehension that somehow it will come back to haunt you if you rock the boat, I understand that, been there felt that. I did however overcome it, but when you take on the powers that be, reguardless who they are, you need to do it unemotionally, professionally and you better have your stuff in one sock. Be ready to take the punches if you wanna win the fight, but the fight can be won and they are sweet victories boys, real sweet. If you aren't willing to do what it takes and do the research then you must suck it up, shut up and face the fact your afraid or worse then that, lazy.
But I told you all in my first post, "I got it" I want this fight, I have the means to conduct it, and the avenues to take it up into the heavens and you know what is up there don't you?? This is a no-sh$#@er guys, I love this stuff!! And when I am successful I expect only three words from you guys..."Thank you Sir" oh yea and a beer or two or three or 120, or maybe a good single malt Scotch and a $25 cigar.
I shoulda never retired!! I really miss you guys.
As far as I can tell with the research I have done it is improper for any command to send you to any activity on "official Navy business" and not pay you travel, if they expect you to use your own car. Granted in my 25 years I went and did plenty of one or two day even week long schools, conferences, yadda yadda, and used my car but these were in the local area NOT 50 miles or more away and not for 20 or 30 days. The fact that you were not issued any TAD orders is another improper aspect of this entire evolution, you should have been, and offering you no cost orders is crap also becuz it specifically says that those are for use when the activity is not really "official Navy business". As far as I can tell the way they administer the IFS program is in violation of a lot of stuff, I can't find anything that allows them to get around it Personally I want to believe the CO doesn't know that the situation is what it is, but I find that hard to believe too and that is not a good thing, but if someone is willing to take them on, and I am, I think it can be improved. I realize that it might be daunting to you guys, there is always that lingering apprehension that somehow it will come back to haunt you if you rock the boat, I understand that, been there felt that. I did however overcome it, but when you take on the powers that be, reguardless who they are, you need to do it unemotionally, professionally and you better have your stuff in one sock. Be ready to take the punches if you wanna win the fight, but the fight can be won and they are sweet victories boys, real sweet. If you aren't willing to do what it takes and do the research then you must suck it up, shut up and face the fact your afraid or worse then that, lazy.
But I told you all in my first post, "I got it" I want this fight, I have the means to conduct it, and the avenues to take it up into the heavens and you know what is up there don't you?? This is a no-sh$#@er guys, I love this stuff!! And when I am successful I expect only three words from you guys..."Thank you Sir" oh yea and a beer or two or three or 120, or maybe a good single malt Scotch and a $25 cigar.
I shoulda never retired!! I really miss you guys.
First call is in
OK, made the first contact. Called CO of NASC, he was not in, left my number about an hour later got a call from the XO, (CO's real busy I guess). The conversation was a nice one and the answers and comments I got back were what I expected. Basically the situation was not a shock to him, in other words he/they know that you guys are using your own cars and money, but that's the way it is becuz of limited money avail. Pointed out to him that limited funds is not an excuse for placing you guys in a situation pay your own way, and gave him the appropriate Milpersman and JFTR references. XO then brought up the van availability, I explained that whole thing and how it works and the very simple fact that 3 vans and 120 guys just doesn't pass the reasonable man test. We small talked a little, like old farts will do. Bottom line is he is going to look into the situation and see where he can make the situation better, I don't really know what that means but he said he would get back to me or the CO would. I'm going to give them a week, if nothing by then I'll take the next step. What I ask you guys to do is be attentive to any potential changes that might pop up in the next week so I have some intel if I need it, be part of the solution.
OK, made the first contact. Called CO of NASC, he was not in, left my number about an hour later got a call from the XO, (CO's real busy I guess). The conversation was a nice one and the answers and comments I got back were what I expected. Basically the situation was not a shock to him, in other words he/they know that you guys are using your own cars and money, but that's the way it is becuz of limited money avail. Pointed out to him that limited funds is not an excuse for placing you guys in a situation pay your own way, and gave him the appropriate Milpersman and JFTR references. XO then brought up the van availability, I explained that whole thing and how it works and the very simple fact that 3 vans and 120 guys just doesn't pass the reasonable man test. We small talked a little, like old farts will do. Bottom line is he is going to look into the situation and see where he can make the situation better, I don't really know what that means but he said he would get back to me or the CO would. I'm going to give them a week, if nothing by then I'll take the next step. What I ask you guys to do is be attentive to any potential changes that might pop up in the next week so I have some intel if I need it, be part of the solution.
Wow, thank you. I've been looking at the JTFR and saw what you pointed out, and the other area that was mentioned earlier in this thread. I've still got some more to go through, but have to do some more studying as well for an exam and flights coming up. I'll keep you up to date if I hear anything wrt transportation around here.
Update
Well unfortunately I did not get a return phone call from the NASC Command Element, or anyone else for that matter, so I'll have to take this to the next step. Will be making a call on Monday first thing in the morning Texas time, if ya get my drift, if no joy from the man in Texas then the next step is a lesson in why it is so very important to make sure you vote in every election you can. I've been voting since 1972 and this is the first time I ever really need to make a call and ask for assistance, I figure after 36 years of voting I've earned it. I'll let ya know how things progress. Unfortunately none of you have expressed any change in the way things are being handled there so I guess I just got schmoozed on the phone.....bad move on their part, I'm not going away.
Well unfortunately I did not get a return phone call from the NASC Command Element, or anyone else for that matter, so I'll have to take this to the next step. Will be making a call on Monday first thing in the morning Texas time, if ya get my drift, if no joy from the man in Texas then the next step is a lesson in why it is so very important to make sure you vote in every election you can. I've been voting since 1972 and this is the first time I ever really need to make a call and ask for assistance, I figure after 36 years of voting I've earned it. I'll let ya know how things progress. Unfortunately none of you have expressed any change in the way things are being handled there so I guess I just got schmoozed on the phone.....bad move on their part, I'm not going away.
You could just send the man in Texas a PM. He is an active member of AW & he actually cares about what is happening to his SNAs & SNFOs.
True that...if you are in that tax bracket (simply substitute yours)
Payments for travel claims are not reported as income so you don't pay taxes on that...even in civilian world
Nice gesture, but doubt they handle stuff like this on a Saturday.