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Kobe Bryant Helo Incident

Spatial D is still CFIT. I believe G-LOC incidents are also considered CFIT. Now, if his disorientation led him to overbank/stall/etc then lose control...

Either way, you’re right about splitting hairs.
 
Brett327 said:
Is it really CFIT though if you've inadvertently induced an attitude/flight path that may be unrecoverable given the surrounding terrain? I may be splitting hairs, but if that is what happened, then I'd have a hard time calling that "controlled."
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“Controlled” is a term of art here, implying there was nothing otherwise wrong with the aircraft except the control inputs.

that is, the helicopter did what the pilot told it to do.
 
squorch2 said:
“Controlled” is a term of art here, implying there was nothing otherwise wrong with the aircraft except the control inputs.

that is, the helicopter did what the pilot told it to do.
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Got it, but in my mind that is distinct as a causal factor than flying straight/level IMC into the ground. I presume one can overcontrol to the point of losing control. That doesn't sound outside the realm of possibility here. In that case, CFIT wouldn't be the most precise description.
 
SVFR alone isn't some sort of boogie man that folks are making it out to be. Yes, you're operating below FW VFR mins but you're also operating a helicopter that has unique operating parameters. Helos operate SVFR safely all over the world. Also, because you're SVFR you're not IFR. Youre on a VFR plan flying in visual contact with the surface in what are IMC conditions. IMC≠IFR.

I'd be curious to know how many times the MP had flown this or similar routes in and around LA and how SOCAL approach handles helo ops when the marine layer is present. Since it's such an insane airspace I'd be willing to bet that short IFR hops are dissuaded to not have helos cluttering up an airspace filled with lots of big FW. I'd also wager it would be a safe assumption that the MP had operated SVFR within the LAX area before and didn't see his flight as out of the ordinary.
 
Treetop Flyer said:
I’m not a helo guy obviously the the idea of SVFR into mountainous terrain, with no TAWS, single pilot, sounds scary to me.
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I was not a SD guy so I don't know how scared he should have been. As I said, id be willing to bet that the MP had flown this route or similar many times. SVFR or at night. I'd fly out of NOB or Pax all day with an 1100/2 observation. Granted that was dual piloted so I have no idea how that'd change my calculus. My point is this probably didn't seem like a bad idea to the MP at launch.
 
Pags said:
I'd be curious to know how many times the MP had flown this or similar routes in and around LA and how SOCAL approach handles helo ops when the marine layer is present. Since it's such an insane airspace I'd be willing to bet that short IFR hops are dissuaded...
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It's not dissuaded. If you file IFR and pickup your clearance, you're just another airframe in the flow. I've personally been victim to ATC assuming a helo can be a helo in ALL regimes, but none of that matters. IFR, you're just another piece of tin to move, and if given an instruction that won't work, you say "Unable."

All that said, if you're a VFR only program, and you have a customer that assumes/demands you move them quickly across the area, that can (not presuming in this case) be a factor. A factor I'd argue is far more important than worrying what ATC thinks.
 
Obviously this is anecdotal and should be taken with a grain of salt, but I had heard from somebody who is familiar with that helo operation that the pilot was an experienced CFII and that the company’s Op Specs were not approved for IFR.

Don’t know the validity of course so please do not necessarily take it as fact. Just another potential data point.
 
The problem with IFR in a helo is the beginning or end of the flight. People use helicopters because of their unique ability to get into or out of small places. If you just wanted to get from one airport to another in LA, you would use a PC-12 or something like that. How many of the helipads in LA area have instrument approaches or departures?

I have been in the scenario where I have tried to pick up an IFR clearance to get home, but couldn't. ATC can't give you a clearance until you get to the Minimum Vectoring Altitude. But you can't get up to the MVA because that is in the clouds. Well you can't go IMC without an IFR clearance. Catch-22. Sometimes you can sweet talk the controller and guarantee obstacle clearance up to the MVA, but that is wrong and rare.

I remember being in that scenario over the East Bay in Pensacola. I could have broken a rule and intentionally gone IMC , but I elected to take the SVFR clearance home instead. I think the weather was right around 500-1. This was on course rules. I was very familiar with the area and knew there was nothing bigger than water towers along the route.
 
Pags said:
I was not a SD guy so I don't know how scared he should have been. As I said, id be willing to bet that the MP had flown this route or similar many times. SVFR or at night. I'd fly out of NOB or Pax all day with an 1100/2 observation. Granted that was dual piloted so I have no idea how that'd change my calculus. My point is this probably didn't seem like a bad idea to the MP at launch.
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I'm guessing he had flown this route many times before. Perhaps not in same weather though.

1100/2 in the basin/valley prob going to get a lot worse pushing west into rising coastal hills/mtns.

Doing it single piloted for a VFR only company would definitely make hairs on the back the neck stand up, I think.

Having not flown for a civilian helo pax company, does the fact they only do VFR ops imply that their aircraft are not configured for IFR ops? Or is it an insurance thing, or training cost, or inability to keep pilots current?
 
xmid said:
If you really want to blow some minds, request a contact approach...
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That's because there's times where that's a good idea, but also times when it's more likely to turn out to just be a slightly messier form of seppuku. Helo guys correct me if it's different for you. But as a fixed-wing guy, my IFR decision-making calculus is decidedly slanted in favor of the latter, not the former . . .
 
nittany03 said:
That's because there's times where that's a good idea, but also times when it's more likely to turn out to just be a slightly messier form of seppuku. Helo guys correct me if it's different for you. But as a fixed-wing guy, my IFR decision-making calculus is decidedly slanted in favor of the latter, not the former . . .
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An example where I used it: ATC called and said "home field just went IFR @800OVC/3 what are your intentions?" I was coming in @500 feet (normal) and almost had the field in sight, with a cloud deck that was obviously no lower than 800 all the way in and no obstacles (I was well aware of the area around my home field). about 10 seconds after they cleared me for the contact approach I had the field in sight and was switched to tower. The reason I wanted a contact approach over SVFR is they still provide aircraft clearance with a contact because technically you are on an IFR approach. SVFR you're on your own. They just don't provide ground/obstacle clearance. Pretty benign.

Anything more complicated than that and I would absolutely agree that it's a bad move. Mountainous/Hazardous terrain withstanding, flying helicopters is different. When your wheelhouse is flying around at 500 feet, a ceiling slightly below 1k is not necessarily a big deal. Even in the FRS, flying SVFR was done all the time without raising an eyebrow. Unless you're in the mountains... Then you're playing Russian roulette with your life and everyone on board.

As previously mentioned, my former squadron had a similar incident back in 2010. The flight profile looked very similar. IIMC, spatial-D, rapid acceleration/decent rate. The main difference being they saw the trees right before they hit and went in to some crazy 60-80 degree flare right before they hit the trees and everyone survived
 
Picked up the contact approach into Whiting a few tire when field went IMC while I was on course rules. Not a huge deal if you know your way around.
 
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