Midshipman Rank

[The Stinkster]

For rank....the Chief would be correct....between CWO and ENS. As to the USNA "superior" question....it would be more accurate to say that if you graduate/commision in the months right around USNA graduation (may-June approx) then your lineal number will be after that of the USNA grads. Still that way.
I would be very surprised if the NROTC guys are only under the UCMJ when on cruise. Especially the scholarship/contract/BDCP guys. IF your argument is that you are only active duty when you are on cruise, who is paying you/paying for your school the rest of the time. If you have taken the oath, been issued the id card and are taking the "Kings coin" then you are under the "kings laws". It would surpise me if it were different. Just because the UCMJ is not what is always applied doesn't mean that it couldn't be or doesn't apply.

 

[A4sForever]

Not sure what you mean by "potential military 'jurisdiction'"......

Ahhhh ... it's easy.

If you REALLY fvck'ed something up and/or "embarrassed" UNCLE ... he always has the UCMJ "hammer" to use on you. It seldom happened ... but I know of one occasion when it did ... because it was usually easier, faster, and more cost effective to send NROTC MIDN's packing ... or to put you in that white hat and make you that dreaded Seaman Deuce headin' for the Fleet ...

It's not rocket science, guys ... you raise your hand, take the oath, and take $$$ from UNCLE, and you will find yourself potentially under "military jurisdiction" ... ... perhaps different now --- that's the way it was ....

 

[HighDimension]

The only "authority" I could find is the USNA Catalog, pp 33 in my version - i.e., rank between CWO and O-1. Also my UCMJ, dog eared as it is makes no distinction between USNA and NROTC. Back in my day USNA Middies were superior to NROTC, I thought they had fixed that when Col John Glenn had all middies graduating into the reserves instead of Regular Nav, of course all that has changed and perhaps we are back where we started from, as they are now Regular Nav.

I guess I would not mind change if things did not stay the same.

They still are. I make sure to bow and offer the proper greeting if I ever see one. They made it to the USNA thereby earning our respect

 

[TheBubba]

USNA Mids are superior ONLY in lineal number. Someone already said it, but for most(if not all) NROTC spring grads, their date of rank is the same as Academy grads. But like they say... seniority among ensigns is like honor amongst thieves...

 

[The Chief]

They still are. I make sure to bow and offer the proper greeting if I ever see one. They made it to the USNA thereby earning our respect

Thanks for picking that up. Of course I was just baiting. 1 year in the Fleet and you cannot tell the difference, or rarely tell the difference. Agree vs.vs respect.

Hypothetical on the UCMJ issue. Lets supposed a four year NROTC, now a senior at MIT is on active duty in July, ergo, according to argument, subject to UCMJ, in August he/she leaves active duty and is no longer subject to UCMJ. Now assume that said same NROTC commits a very serious offense against the Code, an ofense that is only punishable under the Code, pick one of several. Now the dude is scot free. Military justice cannot touch them. National attention, media coverage and etc. In September he/she reports for cruise and become the subject to UCMJ. Prejudicial to good order and discipline, but cannot hold them against provisions of the Code?

A4 has the answer, IMHO.:icon_wink

 

[A4sForever]

USNA Mids are superior ONLY in lineal number....

Superior is the wrong word. It's "senior" .....

..... And THAT's ALL , and that only by act of some bureaucracy ... put 'em -- those "superior" USNA MIDs in a cockpit and I've NEVER seen one that could best one former NROTC MID that I know ....

Believe it ....

 

[TheBubba]

A4s,

Being an USNA grad (or perolee, how ever you look at it), I can definitly believe that. Some (not all) of "us" come in thinking we are God's gift to Naval Aviation... I'll believe that when God Himself tells me. Also backing thi up is that since I started primary, I've seen more USNA grads wash out (quit or get ye olde boot to the arse) that OCS/ROTC guys... (includes SNFOs and SNAs)

Not to knock my former Institute of Higher Learning... but...

[rant]
I figure it this way... ROTC, OCS or Academy.. in the end, we all raised our hands and took the same oath and put on the same rank. Who give two sh!ts where I got my diploma or if I got commissioned in Annapolis, P-Cola or State Univ. I'm still an Ensign as is every other person wearing butter bars. Simple as that.
[\rant]

 

[raptor10]

Thanks for picking that up. Of course I was just baiting. 1 year in the Fleet and you cannot tell the difference, or rarely tell the difference. Agree vs.vs respect.

Hypothetical on the UCMJ issue. Lets supposed a four year NROTC, now a senior at MIT is on active duty in July, ergo, according to argument, subject to UCMJ, in August he/she leaves active duty and is no longer subject to UCMJ. Now assume that said same NROTC commits a very serious offense against the Code, an ofense that is only punishable under the Code, pick one of several. Now the dude is scot free. Military justice cannot touch them. National attention, media coverage and etc. In September he/she reports for cruise and become the subject to UCMJ. Prejudicial to good order and discipline, but cannot hold them against provisions of the Code?

A4 has the answer, IMHO.:icon_wink

NO the CO still has the discretion to cut the cancer out of the program, through PRB's, LOA's, and disenrollment...

And even if they commit a crime that is punishable by civillian authorities, that is still the only recourse that a CO has

NROTC Administrative Manual

5.14 ADMINISTRATIVE PROCEDURES WHERE MIDSHIPMEN HAVE BEEN CHARGED WITH CIVIL OFFENSE OR INCARCERATED PENDING TRIAL PROCEEDINGS. Upon being notified that a student has been charged of a civil offense or incarcerated pending a trial, the PNS shall immediately place the midshipman on LOA. A Performance Review Board is not required at this time. If the midshipman is convicted of the crime, a Performance Review Board must be held for probable disenrollment from the program. If the midshipman is incarcerated, hold the Performance Review Board in absentia; however, the midshipman shall be notified of the pending PRB. Once the PRB is held and endorsed by the PNS, the midshipman shall receive a copy of the board and its endorsements. Under no circumstances allow a midshipman to be commissioned pending the following circumstances:

a. Awaiting trial or sentence, on probation, under suspended sentence, or under any other type of civil restraint as a result of violation of the law.

b. Has been given a deferred sentence or released from probation, suspended sentence, or any other form of civil restraint for the express purpose of accepting a commission.

c. Convicted of a felony or if he/she has been convicted of, or admits to, any offense involving sexual deviation.

d. Have two or more civil convictions for driving while intoxicated (DWI) or driving under the influence (DUI).

Where the midshipman is found not guilty or exonerated of the charges, remove him/her from LOA. Notify the midshipman of his/her status and allow the midshipman to continue in the program or receive his/her commission. The midshipman may request retroactive pay. The request shall be made to CNET (MIDN ADMIN). Where the unit has already received the commissioning documents, those documents shall be used to commission the midshipman. The effective date will remain the original date of commissioning for time in rate purposes. Pay will not commence until the member reports on active duty as directed by the orders.

 

[HighDimension]

Alright Chief, I should be studying for my Naval Engineering midterm but I've been searching through the Naval Administrative Manual and CNET Instructions to try to find the answer to the UCMJ thing for sure. CNET Instruction 1533.12G Chapter IV - Page 28 says:

NROTC Students do not fall within the purview of the UCMJ except when they are ordered to active duty for training.

https://ndman.netc.cnet.navy.mil/docushare/dsweb/Services/Document-749

edit: BZ to you too, raptor!

 

[raptor10]

Virtual rep to you too!

 

[IRfly]

In BDCP you're active duty all of the time, and therefore subject to the UCMJ all of the time.

And at OCS you're definitely at the bottom of the Navy totem pole, calling anyone wearing a uniform "Sir" or "Ma'am."

 

[RichardDelk]

I would be very surprised if the NROTC guys are only under the UCMJ when on cruise. Especially the scholarship/contract/BDCP guys.

Since we are active duty, BDCP guys are subject to the UCMJ. I'm pretty sure there's a note of that in the contract actually.

 

[MIDNJAC]

I think NROTC students are still held to the standards of the UCMJ by and large, even if they are not punishable under the UCMJ. Our staff gives an annual lecture just prior to the beginning of summer, and one of their key points (and the stated "main" reason for the UCMJ lecture) is that we will fall under UCMJ while on cruise which is not normally the case. But you can't just flip the "switch" on and off when you please. One interesting (and important) caveat is that if we commit a UCMJ offense while on cruise, there is no statute of limitations that protects us from being charged once we get back home and are officially off active duty. So, in theory an NROTC student could fall under UCMJ jurisdiction even in the safety of his/her home unit. Our CO made a point that it would only take one administrative flick of the finger by our Federal Secretary and any one of us could be on "active" duty in order to stand in for punishment/court martial. Don't think that this couldn't be the case in another situation, given the right circumstances....crazier things have happened.

 

[raptor10]

Exactly, this is not some free pass to commit all the sodomy you want before you get "called up" but just defining legal realities.

 

[bluemarlin04]

As a reservists Im subject to UCMJ at all times if I get caught doing something I shouldnt be. As for the question of Midshipmen rank, Im an E-3 in A school and my buddies and I laugh at all the OCS guys running around. Especially when I was at aircrew school and they're standing in the lawn saluting squirrels. Put it this way, If you a midshipmen, most lower level enlisted find you mildly amusing, I couldnt even figure out what the collar device was when I first saw one walking around.