That is what the ROTC guys are for.
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Naval Academy fights booze...
- Thread starter incubus852
- Start date
That is what the ROTC guys are for.
I don't think the program is a bad idea. I doubt it will cut down on drinking, but it may keep a couple of them from getting behind the wheel. It's far from the silliest training I've received in the Navy, and I haven't been around that long.
Its not new. We had this exact same thing when i was there in 2006. They didn't make it mandatory but we got to go and have 5 drinks back then 4 if you were female to show us what "binge drinking" was and how our BAC correlated. It took me three drinks to register but by the time I got to five I was over. I think it was good to see how many drinks made me legally drunk and how many made me feel drunk because they don't always measure up. I felt hammered and wasn't legally drunk. I am sure that this works quite differently for people who drink more often. I can see how someone can be legally drunk and not feel like it. Its better to learn your limits in a safe environment then go out push it and kill yourself or worse someone else.
This type of thought is unfortunately common in today's Navy. One solution for all. :icon_rage
In my previous squadron one fellow JO got drunk and vomited in the BOQ (ruining a $40 comforter) on a overnight NALO stop coming home from deployment. Higher ups catch wind of this and NALO rides have been dry for everyone since. For a while it was mandatory to have an O-4 (babysitter) ride with the aircrews.
What ever happened to making an example out of someone by hammering the hell out of them? If the punishment isn't enough to deter the next guy....raise the stakes.
I've never liked these arguments, because if I argue against it am I saying it's ok that "one mid" dies? Not at all.
It's the same as saying "if gun control saves one life" then it's worth it. Sure, maybe some rule/law/regulation can save one person's life, but at what cost and number of other lives?
It's almost impossible to prove that this will save one life, as well as it's almost impossible to say that not using it will not save one life. The "one life" argument is a slippery slope that can lead to knee-jerk reactions wrt to regulations and laws.
I knew JP and even though his death was tragic, no one can say with 100% certainty that it was because he had a bac of .10 (I can't remember the exact number, it's been a few years now). For that matter, no one is able to say that his death was attributed to alcohol at all. All we know is he had been drinking and woke up dead the next morning.
The issue I have with it is the decision for personal responsibility. I didn't believe when I was a mid that the Academy should tell me how I should be responsible for myself and I don't believe that now. I don't condone binge drinking, but if a mid, or any person for that matter, wants to, it's their personal choice. It is also their personal choice to suffer the consequences of said drinking.
For those mids who get in fights at Acme or wherever, all I can say is no matter how great some may consider the Academy, if a person comes in a turd as a Plebe and then graduates, they'll still be a turd, just polished up a bit.
10% of the people take up 90% of the time. As Tri-Kedge said, hammer the ones who break the law or fvck it away and ball it up.
In my opinion, it's not the drinking that's the problem at the Academy, it's the fact that, or at least during my tenure there, the officials were too easy on the punishments for people who did screw it up. Offenses that would've gotten people booted out before were just getting restriction and tours. Here's a perfect example, a mid makes a fake id using his military id, goes out, gets wasted, comes back to the gate and tries to get back in using the fake. The gate guards know the id is bogus so he gets fried. So, underage drinking, fake id, and general conduct unbecoming, not to mention this is after we had to sign the papers saying no fake ids or automatic dismissal. If it would have been me, boot his ass out. Did they? No, he got to stay. Why would mids take it serious if they knew that yeah, they may stand restriction but will still graduate. It's not a bunch of new rules that the Academy needs (that sounds strangely similar to what happens with gun control, no?) it's the balls to boot people out when they deserve it. That way, the mids that want to be there will do what's right to stay.
/off rant
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
I agree completely. My argument about the socially inept officer is pretty much for your ordinary, average, every day guy who wakes up with a hangover on Saturday morning and didn't do anything but drink too much. That's the part that I think is crippling them, because they won't know their limits when they're in the fleet, supposedly setting the example for the junior guys. What about a dude that's flown out to his ship immediately after graduation to linkup with them in the med? Newfound freedom + culture of alcohol + foreign port = Poor example set by the new Ens, noticed by the senior O's.
The BIGGEST problem I've noticed from the mids we sponsor and their friends is that they don't seem to have as much classmate loyalty as in past classes. Yes, it got out of hand (class of '94 and EE demonstrated that), but these kids seem to act as if it doesn't impact them, then it's not their problem. Then they bitch about libbo and drinking without looking inside themselves, or figuring out why the problem exists. They aren't looking out for each other on libbo, plain and simple.
I think the fact that the mids we sponsor were so non-chalant about the deaths: "I don't understand, we ONLY had three!" I'm with you - one is too many.
I would definitely say that classmate/company loyalty is what kept my company alcohol offense -free this semester. Those who can within company always seem to go out together, 1/c, 2/c, and even a few 3/c. Our CC always talks about looking out for each other as does our CO. I would definitely agree with you on this point; more loyalty and taking care of each other is needed.
Ok, back to studying. 4 down 2 to go.
No one is saying "Go binge drink."
Well, no one is officially.....haha.
The point is some of these kids are going to want to go out and binge drink. Guess what? They are in college. And if they don't do it in college, they are still going to do it.
Where? Once they get to API or wahtever shoe school they go to. Or out in the fleet. And now they are 23 year old idiots with responsibility (sort of) and no real background of partying sans high school. And they may not have grown socially from just sitting around playing whatever the newest video game is. They have those wild oats to sew, clearly, and they will do it at some point.
Every non-acedemty grad who has been in the military for over a year stand up if you know a few academy guys who absolutely BLEW UP on the party scene when they got out of the USNA? Oh look, we are all standing...
But to actually look at the root of the problem here (in my opin the basically no getting drunk policy even though we make your week at school hell):
Is the drinking the problem or the things the kids do when they are drinking a problem? Obvious answer. Every school deals with this sort of thing. Maybe a knee-jerk reaction that might lead to people not getting anything out of their system--which was already a problem, as shown in the last paragraph--isn't the answer.
You really expect me to believe the USNA is incapable of taking in recruits who can't drink like a normal college kid without doing all kinds of overtly stupid stuff, and doing that in higher percentages than their college equivelant? If that is the case, then yes, we need to put those idiots on lock down, stop all drinking, and take a good hard look at the system. Not because I am worried about them going out and doing something stupid, but because those are the folks who are soon going to be tasked with some pretty serious shit. Including looking out for my life. So if they are really that incompetant as a whole, lets fix the problem at the root.
Or maybe did a couple of mistakes get skylined a little too much?
I've never been a fan of saying, "Even one is too many...." about pretty much anything.
Do Midshipmen REALLY need to drive on the weekend? I mean REALLY need to? What if 7 are in an SUV that gets plowed by a semi and they are all killed? Tragic, yes. Does that mean driving should be off limits?
Or what about weekend activities like boating, or bungee jumping (probably already not allowed), et al? Those fun things aren't really necessary at all, but they do them. And frankly a 21 year old at the academy should have enough personel responsibility to do those things and mitigate the risk somewhat. As they shoudl with drinking. Some will screw it up, accidents (tragic ones, even) will happen. But knee-jerk reactions are not the cure.
As an athlete at my college we were forced to do training on drinking and the like for X amount of hours a year because we were a high risk group. One speaker that stoop out didn't get up there and preach at all about not drinking too much. He just said if you are going to drink too much, don't be a moron. Or better still, don't let your friend be a moron. I'm not going to try to summarize his 60+ minute presentation, but he actually made sense!!! He didn't try to say, "Don't Drink!!!!!!!" He realized that we needed to look at the actual pieces that lead up to the stupid decisions when we drink. He realized "banning" it wasn't a viable option.
So I say if the Academy dudes can't have the responsibility to drink...um...responsibly, there are other real problems at play.
Agreed. I have also already had one of the enlisted get hit by a truck in a crosswalk because of irresponsible underage drinking. His schooling is delayed, and his classmates who didn't help him are moving on to undesignated rates.
Binge drinking isn't an Academy only problem. Every college has binge drinking. High schoolers have binge drinking problems. I dare say America has a binge drinking problem. The solution is not to tolerate it or to ban drinking altogether or do the .08 deal. The reason the Academy is getting press coverage is because they are trying to teach responsible drinking. I can not see how this is a bad thing.
The "Culture" needs to change. As officers we need to lead the way.
:icon_smil haha dude thats everyone in A-pool: Academy, ROTC, and OCS grads...
Yeah, didn't work out too well last time there was a ban on it.....Prohibition anyone?
This will come across harsh, but I have no sympathy for stupid. I have sympathy for accidents. Accidents are just that, unforeseen. Stupid is a result of poor decisions and irresponsibility.
Teach someone personal responsibility, and whether the person wants to drink no drinks or 6, that person is better off if he gets to make the choice himself than having it made for him.
MasterBates
Well-Known Member
Feddoc For Cno!!!
Concur