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Naval Academy fights booze...

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Yeah, didn't work out too well last time there was a ban on it.....Prohibition anyone?

This will come across harsh, but I have no sympathy for stupid. I have sympathy for accidents. Accidents are just that, unforeseen. Stupid is a result of poor decisions and irresponsibility.

Teach someone personal responsibility, and whether the person wants to drink no drinks or 6, that person is better off if he gets to make the choice himself than having it made for him.

So, if you drink, get drunk and crawl out onto a ledge 60 feet up for a smoke or to make a phone call, is it just an accident or is it stupidity? Or is it a drunken mishap caused by a person who was "taught" personal responsibility in GMT and SMT, and drank to excess anyways?

I believe the current rules are an effort by the administration to get their hands around a rash of poor decision making and irresponsibility.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
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Contributor
So, if you drink, get drunk and crawl out onto a ledge 60 feet up for a smoke or to make a phone call, is it just an accident or is it stupidity? Or is it a drunken mishap caused by a person who was "taught" personal responsibility in GMT and SMT, and drank to excess anyways?

I believe the current rules are an effort by the administration to get their hands around a rash of poor decision making and irresponsibility.


I think crawling out onto a ledge 60 feet up is stupid, having been drinking beforehand has no bearing on that.

Don't get me wrong, I think the administration is doing a good thing in trying to teach mids a responsible way to handle alcohol. What I adamantly disagree with is how much hand-holding is going on. In my opinion,
someone needs to have some slack in the rope, otherwise they'll never be able to figure out how far to go. If the administration wants to hold said "rope" as tight as possible, how will anyone ever be able to make their own choices and learn from it?

My correlation of the rope example is this apparent hard and firm 0.08 bac rule. Someone drinks four drinks over the course of an evening and blows a 0.09 and they get annotated as having an alcohol problem? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how I understand it.

On the other side of the coin, I actually agree with the "booze with booze" idea, as that's a good way to actually quantify how their body responds at a given bac level.

One final thought. Why is it that a bac of 0.08 is being used, as that's only with respect to legally drunk for driving. Why don't they consider public intoxication too, considering most mids simply walk home from DTA?
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think crawling out onto a ledge 60 feet up is stupid, having been drinking beforehand has no bearing on that.

Unfortunately it does have bearing on that. You know as well as I do how alcohol can lower inhibitions and make people do things they never think of doing on Monday morning when sober.

Lowered inhibitions result in: Drinking and driving, huge bar tabs :)o), STDs, unwanted pregnancies, sexual assault cases, etc...the list goes on and on. It's not all about sexual assault in the hall.

If you got to pick a BAC number...why not pick .08? It's the limit in most states...ever wonder why?
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
Unfortunately it does have bearing on that. You know as well as I do how alcohol can lower inhibitions and make people do things they never think of doing on Monday morning when sober.

Which I totally agree with. The point I was trying to make is that I think climbing out on a ledge 60 feet up with no safety is stupid regardless of having been drinking or not.

If you got to pick a BAC number...why not pick .08? It's the limit in most states...ever wonder why?
With respect to the Academy's breathalyzer tests, there obviously has to be a number, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in even using it. I just find it interesting that they're testing people based on the limit wrt driving, as there isn't even a number associated with public intoxication. Public intoxication is based more upon appearance and a perceived threat to others in public, while DUI is based on a specific, set number. To me, that's relevant as more mids walk to and from downtown than drive.

Interesting side note, most states have gone to a .08 limit simply because they get a larger amount of federal support, in terms of money, if they have a lower limit (a friend of mine is a lawyer and told me that once).
 

feddoc

Really old guy
Contributor
Which I totally agree with. The point I was trying to make is that I think climbing out on a ledge 60 feet up with no safety is stupid regardless of having been drinking or not.

With respect to the Academy's breathalyzer tests, there obviously has to be a number, otherwise there wouldn't be much point in even using it. I just find it interesting that they're testing people based on the limit wrt driving, as there isn't even a number associated with public intoxication. Public intoxication is based more upon appearance and a perceived threat to others in public, while DUI is based on a specific, set number. To me, that's relevant as more mids walk to and from downtown than drive.

Interesting side note, most states have gone to a .08 limit simply because they get a larger amount of federal support, in terms of money, if they have a lower limit (a friend of mine is a lawyer and told me that once).


The .08 limit is in effect because that is the point at which most adults will show signs of degraded driving abilities.

On a side note, I see some disagreement / lame justification on the part of some wrt what Schnugg has stated. You youngsters can argue your side of the issue until your lips are numb, but, in the end, he is right. And 'the man' will always be right.
 

SemperGumbi

Just a B guy.
pilot
Interesting side note, most states have gone to a .08 limit simply because they get a larger amount of federal support, in terms of money, if they have a lower limit (a friend of mine is a lawyer and told me that once).


The same way the federal government strong-armed states into making the legal drinking age 21....which, incidently, I think is total BS.
 

SemperGumbi

Just a B guy.
pilot
You youngsters can argue your side of the issue until your lips are numb, but, in the end, he is right. And 'the man' will always be right.


Yeah! The man will always be "right." There's progressive thinking.

Where to start....

I think the issue is that they aren't looking to the root of the problem, they are looking for an "easy fix," and basically saying they don't know why the USNA guys can't behave like normal responsible adults. So the answer is lockdown for the group that is suppose to have MORE responsibility than the average college kid?

I guess I see the people that are FOR those policies as people that feel the USNA kids can't take care of themselves like normal people their own age. Normally (for shits and giggles) that is a statement I would totally agree with! But in a serious conversation about this issue, I have to say it seems trite. Maybe it is true, and they really can't handle themselves like normal college kids. But I just find that speaks volumes about the caliber of person the USNA is taking these days.

Sad, really.
 

a_m

Still learning how much I don't know.
None
Listen, we all know that the administration at the Academy goes in cycles. I wouldn't be at all surprised if this was reversed by the next Sup, Dant, etc. Give it 5-10 years and the mids will probably have a weekend every week.
 

Schnugg

It's gettin' a bit dramatic 'round here...
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Which I totally agree with. The point I was trying to make is that I think climbing out on a ledge 60 feet up with no safety is stupid regardless of having been drinking or not.

There was a rule that said no one was allowed out on the roof ledges. After the first mishap while I was at USNA it was reinforced. Then it happened again. They both broke the rules.

What does "with no safety mean?" I'm being sarcastic here, but is equipping every mid with a rock climbing harness while in their rooms the answer to make it "safe?"

At some point people (mids) have to be responsible for their actions...or "the man" will take responsibility for their actions for them...via new rules.
 

feddoc

Really old guy
Contributor
Yeah! The man will always be "right." There's progressive thinking.

Where to start....

I think the issue is that they aren't looking to the root of the problem, they are looking for an "easy fix," and basically saying they don't know why the USNA guys can't behave like normal responsible adults. So the answer is lockdown for the group that is suppose to have MORE responsibility than the average college kid?

I guess I see the people that are FOR those policies as people that feel the USNA kids can't take care of themselves like normal people their own age. Normally (for shits and giggles) that is a statement I would totally agree with! But in a serious conversation about this issue, I have to say it seems trite. Maybe it is true, and they really can't handle themselves like normal college kids. But I just find that speaks volumes about the caliber of person the USNA is taking these days.

Sad, really.


The point I was trying to make was that those in a position of power will have that power to enforce their rules while those at the bottom of the food chain can't do much about it.
 

JIMC5499

ex-Mech
I have to agree with the personal responsibility side of this issue. Rules and laws are only deterrants to the people that you don't have to worry about in the first place. The stricter you make the rules and laws, the more people are going to violate them. Does anyone know what two Federal laws were changed because almost no one would obey them? If you guessed Prohabition, that would be one. The other is the 55 MPH speed limit.

In the 80's we were allowed to have beer and liquor in the barracks. Hell, we had a soda machine that dispensed beer in our barracks, courtesy of NEX. If you were within a reasonable distance of the base and had too much to drink, you could call the Squardon Duty office and they would send the Duty Driver out to get you, no questions asked. We reimbursed the Navy for the gas we used, from our rec fund. We would usually go out in groups and if someone got hammered, the rest of us would make sure that he got back to the barracks without any trouble. If necessary we would let his roommate know to keep an eye on him or if there wasn't a roommate we would block his door open and let the Fire Watch know to keep an eye on him. We took care of each other.

Then in about 1986 things started to change. The beer machines were removed from the barracks because of the shift to the 21 drinking age. We could no longer use the Duty Driver to pick someone up who had too much to drink, because that meant that the Navy condoned our drinking. You would have some nitwit from MADD writing her Congresscritter that her tax dollars were being wasted by the Navy providing rides to drunks. Then you would see her and others of her type on the news crying about how the Navy was turning your little boys into alcoholics. Well, we can't have the Navy getting bad publicity, that might affect someone's chances for promotion. That was the start of these "zero tolerance" policies. Those backed things off a bit, untill the next moron made a fool of himself and it hit the news. Then they started not only nailing the person who was drunk, they started nailing anyone who was with him. It was now a violation to be caught escorting someone who was drunk back to the barracks.

During our Med cruise, on the Forrestal, in the Summer of 86, my squadron started a policy that you were not allowed to go on liberty by yourself. You had to have a buddy. You had to sign out in the Ready Room before you left and you had to sign in when you returned. If you got seperated from your buddy you both got hammered. If your buddy did something wrong you both got hammered. If you couldn't find someone who wanted to do what you wanted to do, you couldn't go on liberty, you couldn't leave the ship. Because of this being a squadron policy, you couldn't sign out with someone from another squadron or ship's company. It started becoming a crime to stagger across the fantail on the way back from liberty, even if you were not causing a problem and were being helped by friends.

I got out in 87, but from talking to friends and from what I've seen in the news and read here, things haven't gotten any better. I'm not suprised by the "me first" mentality the kids have today. Look at the zero tolerance crap going on in the schools today. Kids are going to jail for having a butter knife in their car. Screw up one time and your life is shot to hell. We need to get back to the looking out for each other mentality that existed before this.

The Academy's rules are not helping at all. Let's face it, some kids are going to drink, one way or another. What these policies have done is to make these kids afraid to help a classmate who has had too much to drink, because they might end up in trouble too. So they have made it easier and safer for the ones who might have helped to just look the other was and pretend that they hadn't seen anything.
 

insanebikerboy

Internet killed the television star
pilot
None
Contributor
What does "with no safety mean?" I'm being sarcastic here, but is equipping every mid with a rock climbing harness while in their rooms the answer to make it "safe?"

I understand your sarcasm, and I didn't mean "safety net" in the literal sense. I was simply alluding to the fact falling off of the ledge would probably kill a person regardless if they'd be drinking or not. I'll maintain till the day I die that climbing out on a ledge at that height is stupid (caveated with the "climbing harness", of course)

At some point people (mids) have to be responsible for their actions...or "the man" will take responsibility for their actions for them...via new rules.

And that's what I've been arguing for all along. The midshipmen being responsible for themselves. It's not "rules" that are going to teach them to be responsible. Holding their hand isn't going to do it either.


I've gotta agree with Jimc. When I was there, it seemed as if more people would much rather have turned a blind eye to someone who was being a shithead than helping them. Not all, but many. They didn't learn that from some rule, they learned it from the administration.


The point I was trying to make was that those in a position of power will have that power to enforce their rules while those at the bottom of the food chain can't do much about it.

That's definitely true, but doesn't mean we can't disagree with it.
 
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