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Navy Hellcat to be pulled from Lake Michigan..

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
With the exception of the war graves at Pearl Harbor, who owns and maintains these ships? Certainly not the Navy......
I believe you will find that the Navy does own the majority of these ships. The museums agree to maintain & preserve them or the Navy will not loan them out.

In fact, when the BBs were in commission in the 1980s/early 1990s, it was not unusual for the Navy to go to some of the museum ships and rob parts.

I also agree with Hacker that these aircraft should be recovered, restored and preserved. If there are human remains involved, recover/treat= the remains with dignity and rebury them. I bet those killed would see the restoration of their aircraft as a memorial.
 

HH-60H

Manager
pilot
Contributor
I believe you will find that the Navy does own the majority of these ships. The museums agree to maintain & preserve them or the Navy will not loan them out.

Really? That's interesting, I was just on the Intrepid website trying to figure that out.

After thinking about it, it seems like a pretty good idea. The foundations/museums probably don't have to worry about as much insurance, any potential property taxes, less liability, and stuff like that. At the same time the Navy gets a free way to preseve Naval history and get some recruiting out of it.
 

Owen

Member
Ownership

Indeed the USN still owns the museum ships; and they send
an inspection team once a year to compile a list of "to do"
maintainence.

When the Iowas were reactivated the navy reclaimed a
good bit of material from the USS Alabama. I suspect it
was the same for the other museum BBs. Also, "raiding
parties" from Pensacola robbed equipment from the BB60
engine rooms to keep LEX in operation for at least a decade.
 

PropAddict

Now with even more awesome!
pilot
Contributor
If there are human remains involved, recover/treat= the remains with dignity and rebury them. I bet those killed would see the restoration of their aircraft as a memorial.

That was my thought as well, when I visited Pearl Harbor recently.

Take the remains out, set up a columbarium or similar nearby, and then raise the Arizona. It would be the ultimate black eye to the Imperial Japanese Navy to have the Arizona sitting at anchor again, and make a great museum.
 

USMCFLYR

New Member
pilot
I guess the Air Force can be just as hard over about civilians messing around with *lost* Air Force property.

I'm watching a show on the Military Channel concerning the 'Lost H-Bomb'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tybee_Bomb

During the show, one of the search team members mentioned that the Air Force has told them to leave the bomb alone and don't touch it! (Good advice! :eek:)

USMCFLYR
 

HackerF15E

Retired Strike Pig Driver
None
I guess the Air Force can be just as hard over about civilians messing around with *lost* Air Force property.

I'm watching a show on the Military Channel concerning the 'Lost H-Bomb'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tybee_Bomb

During the show, one of the search team members mentioned that the Air Force has told them to leave the bomb alone and don't touch it! (Good advice! :eek:)

USMCFLYR

There is a significant difference, however. The USAF will give clear title to (and permission to recover) crashed aircraft that have been struck off the record.

The AF still occasionally exercises control authority over struck-off aircraft (in recent years the NMUSAF has attempted to assert that they are the owners of aircraft that they'd previously given clear title ownership over to other people or organizations), but overall they have a somewhat rational process that allows people who have the time/means/manpower/effort available to recover crashed aircraft that the USAF has no intention of ever recovering and preserving for itself.
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
Bevo, I have quite a lot of experience in the warbird community, including dealing with the USN on ownership issues of WWII wrecks.

Not sure what it is exactly that I'm "blind" to, though.


That would be what most people call "the big picture".


Thanks for the negative rep, though.


It's a standard response to someone who is caught talking out of their ass.


Examples? Obviously not all of them are sole survivors...but at this point, where WWII aircraft are a finite resource.....


Resource?

Oil is a resource. Natural gas is a resource. Underwater wrecks are Navy property, most often maritime grave sites, and not someone's "treasure hunt".

The integrity of these grave sites and the men who died fighting for their country who still lie at their battle station trumps the desire of some random millionaire to fly a vintage war bird in his local airshow. Every time. End of story.


I can't see the rationalization for leaving *any* of them that aren't grave sites in place.

Because you don't get the fact that people who go out treasure hunting don't do a good job of discriminating between "salvage" and "grave robbing". They get worse at it when their paycheck is on the line.


But, apparently since I'm in the USAF, and my service doesn't have a history, I don't have a valid viewpoint on this -- even though my opinion has absolutely zero to do with the service I'm in, and one I had experience with long before I ever took an oath of office in the DoD.

Your service's lack of history makes the ignorant nature of your criticism somewhat ironic. That's why I said it was "funny". The reason you don't have a valid viewpoint on the subject is because you are obviously clueless of the history involved, and unscrupulous nature of many of the people who go out in the name of "salvage" or "preserving history" when the facts are that they are mostly interested in turning a buck and getting their picture in the paper.

For every "good salvage" story, there is another where these teams (like the clowns at Bent Prop) totally fuck up a crash site, destroy remains, or even worse (and someone has to recover the skull of a USMC aviator that is on display at a local bar)...and these situations have to be explained to the family.

Do you have any idea the number of sailors from WW2 that didn't come back? The blanket policy of "leave crash sites the hell alone" makes perfect sense to anyone with half a brain and 15 minutes of experience in this arena. The ratio of wrecks that are grave sites compared to the wreaks that are not is on the order of 50-1.

Once again, the article that was linked as the subject of the original post is further proof that your assertion that:

"The Navy would rather see them decay into nothing than actually preserve them."

Is totally without merit.
 

Owen

Member
Recoveries

Beginning again by restating that there are ALWAYS at least two
sides to every story I will offer another possible motive for the USN's
level of control over crashes.

Most people here remember the story of Kee Bird. Briefly it was
a B-29 that landed on a remote frozen lake in 1947. A very well
funded expedition spent several years trying to get her airworthy.
Long story short; they got her running, were taxiing, a jury rigged
APU in the waist caught fire, and now the B-29 is at the bottom
of the lake, probably never to see the light of day again.

Maybe the navy wants to avoid that scenario. As I write this,
A&T Recovery is in the process of bringing up that Hellcat. They
have successfully raised between 35 and 40 for NNAM and have
not lost one yet. That's a pretty good record and it's hard to
argue with success.

Below is a link to one of the stories on the 'net about Kee Bird.
If you Google "Kee Bird" and "B-29" you will find enough material
to make you cry.....

Owen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kee_Bird
 

OnTopTime

ROBO TACCO
None
Kee Bird on the ice in Greenland. Photo taken from USN P-3C Buno 161340, May 1989.
 

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Godspeed

His blood smells like cologne.
pilot
I figured I'd share a good story I heard from a tour guide at the Seattle Museum of Flight about the Corsair below.

It was a reserve aicraft stationed at NAS Sand Point in Seattle. During a formation flight, the aviator flying this corsair had a non-fatal midair with another aicraft, and ditched into Lake Washington. The pilot was picked up by a boat and returned to shore.

Some forty years later the wreck was discovered and a recovery effort was funded to raise the wreck for the museum.

The aviator that ditched the aircraft was present when it was raised. He asked if he could spend a moment with the aircraft when it was brought on deck before everyone else had a chance. Those that raised the Corsair happily obliged.

After the aircraft was brought on board, the old aviator walked over to the Corsair and climbed up onto the wing... While everyone was curiously watching, he reached into the cockpit, pulled something out, held it up, and shouted, "I just wanted to get my wallet!" Expecting the man to have a heart to heart moment of silence with his old airplane, everyone laughed their asses off.

Must've been a weird thing... Ditching an airplane and forty years later pulling out your wallet... :D Today the Corsair is fully restored and can be seen in the Seattle Museum of Flight at Boeing Field.

TMOF_FG-1D-Corsair_LkWashRescue_P1.jpg
 

Bevo16

Registered User
pilot
Godspeed,

Your story is obviously a fabrication. The Navy wants all of it's aircraft to rot, and will not entertain the idea of recovering them for restoration.

Sell your lies somewhere else.
 

Clux4

Banned
What if your will EXPLICITLY request that your remains be recovered at ALL cost for full military honors. Would the Navy deny a possible salvage/recovery mission?
 

Gatordev

Well-Known Member
pilot
Site Admin
Contributor
Godspeed,

Your story is obviously a fabrication. The Navy wants all of it's aircraft to rot, and will not entertain the idea of recovering them for restoration.

Sell your lies somewhere else.

Congratulations. You've won your internet battle. "Some" on here decided to take the high road. Keep fighting the "good" fight.
 

jollygreen07

Professional (?) Flight Instructor
pilot
Contributor
How did an article about a Hellcat being raised for restoration turn into a pissing contest?

I love this website.
 
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