Navy Hellcat to be pulled from Lake Michigan..

[Bevo16]

What if your will EXPLICITLY request that your remains be recovered at ALL cost for full military honors. Would the Navy deny a possible salvage/recovery mission?

Good one.

Your will decides who gets your shit.

(Actually, the PERE [person eligible to receive effects] as designated on your Page 2 says who gets your shit, if someone disputes that then the civil court system breaks out the will)

Navy policy decides what gets recovered and what doesn't. The Navy considers aircraft and ships to be appropriate final resting places for sailors.

If someone does not like the sound of that, there is always the army.

 

[busdriver]

Bevo,
Your argument that the baseline to deviate from should be to leave the wrecks alone is well founded, however you seem to think, or at least implicate that those of us in the Air Force have no concept of the number of lives lost in WW2 in Naval/Marine Aviation. Just as a friendly reminder, the 8th Air Force lost more people over Europe than the entire Marine Corps in the pacific campaign, and for the life of me I can't find any internet links, my google-fu sucks. I have no interest in an internet dick measuring contest, I'm only trying to point out that, just because those of us in the AF have a much shorter history than you squids doesn't mean that we don't appreciate a history of loss.

The military is a dangerous buisness, should we default to the sacred tomb of all service members? Or should we enforce strict standards of respect and restore the limited pieces of our heritage we have left, so that future generations can learn about the history that we all know so well? Would those lost prefer to be left alone, or do they want their story told?

Busdriver

 

[Clux4]

Good one.

Your will decides who gets your shit.

(Actually, the PERE [person eligible to receive effects] as designated on your Page 2 says who gets your shit, if someone disputes that then the civil court system breaks out the will)

Navy policy decides what gets recovered and what doesn't. The Navy considers aircraft and ships to be appropriate final resting places for sailors.

If someone does not like the sound of that, there is always the army.

Thanks for clarification but I am not sure the Navy will maintain said policy when the aircraft/vessel can be recovered.
I can see this turning into a political debacle especially when the family is telling the Navy they have the means to support a recovery.
How many of these such sites are we aware of? I am no expert on undisturbed burial sites but it seems contradictory when we tell our Sailors and Marines we will bring them home no matter how long it takes. I can understand when the means are not present but.......

You learn something on AW everyday

 

[rrpilot]

More found Navy property, I didn't think this was worth a whole new thread, Guy finds large U.S. Navy flare on the beach and brings it home. Doesn't notice the "Do Not Handle" stamped on it. Hilarity ensues as bomb squad called in.......lucky he didn't blow himself up...:timebomb2


http://www.capecodonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20091130/NEWS/911300310/-1/NEWS11

 

[Bevo16]

Bevo,
Your argument that the baseline to deviate from should be to leave the wrecks alone is well founded, however you seem to think, or at least implicate that those of us in the Air Force have no concept of the number of lives lost in WW2 in Naval/Marine Aviation.

You overgeneralize. My point was directed at one person, who seems to have no clue or concept of the lives lost in WW2 in Naval/Marine Aviation. I am certain that there are many people in the Air Force who understand history as you do. You were not in that frag pattern.

...should we default to the sacred tomb of all service members? Or should we enforce strict standards of respect and restore the limited pieces of our heritage we have left, so that future generations can learn about the history that we all know so well? Would those lost prefer to be left alone, or do they want their story told?

The Navy does a pretty damn good job of doing both.

Thanks for clarification but I am not sure the Navy will maintain said policy when the aircraft/vessel can be recovered.
I can see this turning into a political debacle especially when the family is telling the Navy they have the means to support a recovery.
How many of these such sites are we aware of? I am no expert on undisturbed burial sites but it seems contradictory when we tell our Sailors and Marines we will bring them home no matter how long it takes. I can understand when the means are not present but.......

You learn something on AW everyday

The Navy does salvage operations for current operational losses all the time. NAVAIR always wants to get their hands on the aircraft for the AMB if at at all possible, and remains recoveries go hand-in-hand with those operations.

JPAC does the recoveries of crash sites from past conflicts. When those locations are found, they determine the water depth and likelihood that the crash site will be disturbed, and make a decision on if they are going to do a recovery or declare the wreckage a maritime grave site.

About a year ago, I delivered an ID report to the family of the first non-Pearl Harbor casualty of WW-2. The morning of December 8th, 1941, a flight of PBY's was in Manilla Bay, and attacked by Jap Zeros. They did not have time to get in the air, so the Ensign Aviator manned the machine gun turret to fend off the Japs while his crew evacuated. He was struck by strafing fire, and was the only casualty. A couple of years ago, the shallow water wreck was found, and remains (a full skeleton) was recovered, returned to the family, and buried in Arlington.

 

[cfam]

Really? That's interesting, I was just on the Intrepid website trying to figure that out.

After thinking about it, it seems like a pretty good idea. The foundations/museums probably don't have to worry about as much insurance, any potential property taxes, less liability, and stuff like that. At the same time the Navy gets a free way to preseve Naval history and get some recruiting out of it.

It's definitely true for most of the ships out there, ie WWII era and newer. It gets a bit murkier when you consider ships like the USS Olympia. I worked on her for 4 years, and while the Navy did still "own" her, and reserved the right to repossess her in case of total neglect, they were very hands off when it came to the liability/insurance side of the house. The museum that maintains her (Independence Seaport in Philly), pays for almost all associated costs, hence the relatively poor shape she's in today. There's only so much you can do with a ship that old and limited funds.

 

[Bevo16]

Here is the link for the story I was talking about.

http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/rgtills.htm

http://www.defenselink.mil/releases/release.aspx?releaseid=12379

 

[HercDriver]

There are actually laws that cover this...

This is covered under Title XIV: "SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT" as part of the 2005 Defense Authorization Act:

SEC. 1401. PRESERVATION OF TITLE TO SUNKEN MILITARY CRAFT AND ASSOCIATED CONTENTS.
Right, title, and interest of the United States in and to any United States sunken military craft--

(1) shall not be extinguished except by an express divestiture of title by the United States; and
(2) shall not be extinguished by the passage of time, regardless of when the sunken military craft sank.
​

And you can apply for and get a permit from the Secretary who owns the craft:

SEC. 1403. PERMITS.
(a) In General- The Secretary concerned may issue a permit authorizing a person to engage in an activity otherwise prohibited by section 1402 with respect to a United States sunken military craft, for archaeological, historical, or educational purposes, in accordance with regulations issued by such Secretary that implement this section.

Interesting stuff...without any hurt feelings or negative reps.
http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/org12-12a.htm

 

[phrogpilot73]

Bevo, you are a study in contradictions. In one moment, you want to honor the service and sacrifice of sailors and Marines in WWII. In the next breath, you disparage an individuals service (which I might point out - has been longer than yours) to this country because of the length of history of his service, and the fact that he has a conflicting viewpoint. You will not do this again. Are we clear?

 

[USMCFLYR]

There is a significant difference, however. The USAF will give clear title to (and permission to recover) crashed aircraft that have been struck off the record.

The AF still occasionally exercises control authority over struck-off aircraft (in recent years the NMUSAF has attempted to assert that they are the owners of aircraft that they'd previously given clear title ownership over to other people or organizations), but overall they have a somewhat rational process that allows people who have the time/means/manpower/effort available to recover crashed aircraft that the USAF has no intention of ever recovering and preserving for itself.

Hacker -

My post was made in jest A little bit of humor with the AF saying that they didn't want others messing around with a lost Hydrogen bomb! DUH!

USMCFLYR

 

[rrpilot]

A Navy Hellcat that sank on a training mission in 1945 is to be pulled from Lake Michigan next week...

Here is some video of the Hellcat seeing sunlight for the first time in a long while, very cool...

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2009/11/30/vo.war.plane.wgn

 

[Bevo16]

In one moment, you want to honor the service and sacrifice of sailors and Marines in WWII. In the next breath, you disparage an individuals service (which I might point out - has been longer than yours) to this country because of the length of history of his service, and the fact that he has a conflicting viewpoint.

I didn't "disparage" anyone's service and my comments were not rooted in a "conflicting viewpoint".

You misunderstood my post.

For the record, "honoring the service and sacrifice of Sailors and Marines" is my full time job. If someone lacks the experience to formulate a informed "viewpoint" on something, but feels it necessary to call the decisions of those who do understand the subject "idiotic", I am going to not going to let it go unaddressed.

Maybe my delivery was a little rough. I'll bet Hacker has thick enough skin that he didn't lose a ton of sleep over it. I can't fucking sleep anyway, so it's no difference to me.

 

[OnTopTime]

For the record, "honoring the service and sacrifice of Sailors and Marines" is my full time job.

Bevo-
I just googled PERS-62. I think I would have a difficult time imagining what you go through on a regular basis. Thanks for all that you do.

 

[Mumbles]

Caveat...this is not to reinforce any of his posts on this thread. Probably something most of you AWer's don't know about the incendiery/grenade lobber/lightening rod/ uber A-hole known as the Bevo. Though I'm sure he could have gone wherever he wanted to, He took those orders at PERS-62 for one reason. So that he and his wife could be in Memphis so that their little boy could get treatment at St Jude's for his illness.

 

[A4sForever]

Bevo ... Hacker ... you're both valued members of this website and you're both good men!!! So this is offered w/out judgmentalism (is that a word?) of either 'good man's' part in this 'discussion' ...

One or both of you needs to 'throttle back, Jack' ... take a breath ... take a pill ... and lay down ... and relax.

You'll both be better for it ... and so will the website ... and so will the Brotherhood.