New Gouge on Pilot Careers, straight from the 0-7 level

[bch]

The best way to increase command opportunities in the helo community would be to decrease the size of a squadron. The jet guys went to small squadrons and helos could follow that path.

ghost

Remember, we have 2x's the amount of pilots than a jet sqd... multipilot a/c

 

[ghost]

Right I understand that, but now they will have permanently attached forward pointing weapons, 50 cal. and/or missles. They will be ramping up their FP/AT roles that's all. I'm not saying this is ground breaking but that it is increasing. Also the HSL guys will be taking on the ability to do this as well (as they update their airframes from B's to R's or S's).

The 60B allready has FLIR and the Hellfire missile. Nothing will be permanately attached. It is all on removable hardpoints. The 50 cal/GAU-16 is a door mounted weapon, which is limited in the 60B by the single door and small interoir space. The 60R will not have any additional weapons. It is primarily a sensor and avoinics upgrade.

Remember, we have 2x's the amount of pilots than a jet sqd... multipilot a/c

There are a lot of 2-seat jets out there. We could go from 7 dets in a squadron to 4. Just because there are twice as many pilots in a cockpit doesn't mean the wardroom needs to be four times as large.

ghost

 

[bobbybrock]

Just curious as to how much validity there might be to the WO pilot aspect of this post. Does any one know if these guys will serve as full fledged HAC's or will they be some type of co-pilot.
As an Army warrant I'm just curious to see how you navy bubbas feel about this whole thing.

 

[El Cid]

The brief that I got described them as longer tour flying billets with supervisory duties attached to them. To my understanding the RADM said that they would fly like anybody else but not fill the wickets to command (WO = Unrestricted line - command oppurtunities). Reliability factor unkownn until it actually happens, some of the guys talking about last minute cuts make a lot of sense.

 

[bobbybrock]

make sense, but again as an outsider looking ing in it seems like there'd be a lot of tradition to overcome. Warrnats in the army have flown for a long time and there is still a problem. What has happened in the army is this: Warrant have taken over the cockpit. In my unit the only O type who is a HAC is our BN( Sqaudron ) CO. And he's still head and shoulders below most of us IP's in flight time. All of the O's at the company( line pilot ) level are basically inexperienced co-pilots who will remain co-pilots. So many if not all of the missions are run by the warrants. That just seems like it would be a barrier to overcome in the Navy.

 

[zab1001]

make sense, but again as an outsider looking ing in it seems like there'd be a lot of tradition to overcome. Warrnats in the army have flown for a long time and there is still a problem. What has happened in the army is this: Warrant have taken over the cockpit. In my unit the only O type who is a HAC is our BN( Sqaudron ) CO. And he's still head and shoulders below most of us IP's in flight time. All of the O's at the company( line pilot ) level are basically inexperienced co-pilots who will remain co-pilots. So many if not all of the missions are run by the warrants. That just seems like it would be a barrier to overcome in the Navy.

Agreed. It wouldn't be an issue in the beginning, since these guys would be junior in flight time to the commissioned Line guys acting as HACs. But as time went on, there would be inevitable friction, especially since these "Warrants" or LDOs, or whatever the proposal is would have limited ground duties, and possibly more stick time.

Half the battle these days is the Navy's concept of "Officer first, Pilot second". I'm not arguing that point, but if this plan went through and a sh!tload of O-3s at the end of their commitments jump ship because they were screwed out of hours since they were responsible for running a branch or division and had no time to fly while the "new program guy" was flying his a$$ off, then heads will roll. (run on sentence)

Conversely, if they said these "new program guys" (I can't come up with a better term, sorry) guys could only be co-pilots, it wouldn't really motivate them all that much. I'd lay odds on this one falling to the wayside.

 

[bobbybrock]

My advice to the Navy would be to send an 0-3 or 0-4 type to an Army unit and check out the pros and cons.

 

[El Cid]

All that makes sense, but what would happen if the burden of ground responsibilities fell on the WO's? Since we treat WO's differently than all the other branches (i.e. WO's = Chief + more responsibility + more training) they would be able to handle more of the "routine" ground jobs freeing the JO's up to learn to fly and do more of it. Since the WO's will have longer tours they will eventually amass flight hours equal to or slightly greater than guys heading to FRS. I don't think you have to limit the WO's to just Co-Pilot or allow them to hog the stick. I think the Navy can learn from the Army's version and make it work better. Even with the philosophy of "officer first, pilot second" you can successfully institute this "new program" by giving division officer duties to the JO's and "secondary job's" to the WO's like safety and quality assurance (I'm not clear on aviation collateral duties). In the nuke world that I came from the WO's were like "super-chiefs" that were damn good at their job and knew a lot because they had already been around the equipment as enlisted personnel. The whole premise of a WO is that they are to be given more responsibility than an enlisted bubba but less than a JO. That's why they are commissioned but not eligible for command plus they aren't paid as much as LDO's are.

I think applying the template of WO's from other communties to the aviation side of the house would work, but I've never been in an aviation division. I would love for a healthy discussion of this point because I plan to go aviation once I graduate and this would help me to understand the aviation community better before I get there.

 

[wink]

Remember, we had LDO pilots in the 80s. It was mostly in response to guys wanting to stay operational (more flying) and not worried about command boxes being checked. Although the underlying reason was different it sounds like a solution to the current problem in the helo command log jam. But wait, where are the LDO pilots now? Oh ya, didn't work. The guys that went LDO pilot were promised aviation only billets and little chance for O-5 or above. Well guess what aviation billets include, being a cat and arresting gear officer on a CVN watching other pilots go flying. It also included Aviation Schools Command non flying billets. There was little or no chance for post grad school or advanced military education like the War College. So the LDO pilots got many of the same crummy non flying jobs, albiet "avation billets" but were limited in pay and rank. If they were to do much of the same bs, then may as well stay in the hunt for command. The WO pilot proposal sounds like the old LDO pilot designator that died, but for less pay. I say it never happens.

 

[bobbybrock]

Wink,
Did a lot of these LDO pilots serve as T-34 instrucors? That is the story that I've been told.
As far as WO pilots taking away from JO's extra/ collateral duties? This is what has happened in the army. The senior leadership finds more things for the JO's to do. So they seldom get to fly. All the while the Warrnats become more and more experienced.
So by the time that this 0-1 makes 0-3 he's got about 500-600 hours , tops. His Warrant Officer counter part will have about 1000 to 1500 hours of flight time.
So what we have in the army is senior leadership that is not as technically proficient as the pilots they lead. The proverbial double edge sord. This is the challenge I see for the Navy if they do implement this sysytem.

 

[wink]

Going back to be an IP in all the various phases was in the LDO career path. I can see the problems in the Army you mention being of equal concern in the Navy. Most JOs are already complaining about their colateral duties. The Army is more like the Navy than the AF when it comes to JO duties outside the cockpit. Our colateral duties are vital. Dumping more on a O-2 won't go over well.

 

[bobbybrock]

I'm not sure if the problem comes with the extra responsibilty. It comes with moving these JO's out of line pilot positions. These guys( 0-1 thru 0-3 ) get put into staff positions pretty quick. It sems like Navy JO's get at least 3 years plus beofre they move to staff. Most of our JO's get put into stff jobs after 12 to 18 months. In my present unit most of these staff guys fall into what's called FAC 3 status. What this means is they have no aircraft flying minimums. All of their flight comes in the 60 simulator. For the staff pilots that do fly, their flying minimums are 30 hour per six months. For regular line pilots ( warrant officers ) , their flying minimums are 48 per six months.I would say most line pilots fly b/t 200 to 250 annually. Most staff guys fly close to their 30 hours semi annually. So you can see where the disparity comes from.

 

[bobbybrock]

just talked to spec ops buddy of mine who was at a Navy school. He told me that some of the Navy H-60 guys told him they would be flying Army H-60 's in the desert. He said these guys seemed pretty serious about the whole thing. As a H-60 IP who's unit is getting ready to return to the desert, I've heard nothing of this.
Could this be a way for the navy to get a lok at how the Army does business. And have any of you H-60 bubbas heard anything about this.

 

[NOSWO]

Only people I can think of even possibly doing this would be the HCS guys, they are the reserve squadron that has been doing the bulk of the Navy SPEC WAR/SPEC OPS war fighting stuff....but I can tell you that I havent heard anything about that on the HC side of the house....

 

[bobbybrock]

NOSWO,
Yea I was asking around the unit today. Nobody has heard anything of the sort. The only guys I could see doing our mssion is the guys you mentioned form Norfolk and San Dog. Bye the bye how do you like flying the MH-60S. Is that the airframe that looks more like a Blackhawk then a Seahawk?