New wings approved for AMDO/Aviation LDO/CWOs

[Bevo16]

Ahh the vast majority of you are out to lunch. The assertion that these new pins are some sort of "feelgood participation award" is really quite laughable, and not in a laughing with you sort of way.

These new pins and the existing pins for the staff/support side have always had 2 roles. 1) to recognize a level of expertise within a designator and 2) Seperate the wheat from the Chafe in the tank at promotion board. Which of those 2 do you wizards think is the primary reason for these pins to exist? No worries though you guys will figure it out before you put on JG.

You formed this opinion from your current position as a...civilian?

The "out to lunch wizards" you are talking to are all past the rank of JG, thanks.

How in the world to aviation promotion boards manage to "Seperate the wheat from the Chafe" when everyone is wearing the same kind of wings? Man, if only there was some kind evaluation system where commanding officers could comment on performance, we could tell who was good without looking at chest candy.

I am going to write that up and drop it in the suggestion box at work.

 

[Lawman]

2) Seperate the wheat from the Chafe in the tank at promotion board.

This is a very dangerous road to go down. Take a look at the situation we have with commissioned officers in the Army. Guys that go to Air Assault School, Airborne School, etc just to get chest candy so they are more "promotable." Why, because its easier and quicker to judge somebody by their DA photo than to read through their OARs and actually try and figure out who is just checking boxes and who is ligitimately trying to make themselves a better asset. I know cooks that have been to Airborne School.... who never served in Airborne Units. But man they wear that chest candy with pride.

 

[scoolbubba]

We've lost far more surface ships (and sailors aboard those ships) than through aviation and subs combined.

Probably due to the fact that there weren't any aircraft in 1776. Maybe.

 

[ACowboyinTexas]

Anyway, the wheat was separated from the CHAFF (I weep...) during community selection. :icon_tong

 

[Pags]

I'm fairly sure that regardless of the community, FNGs all show up to their first command unable to walk and chew gum at the same time, let alone do something tactically skilled.

If FNGs showed up at helo squadron knowing everything there was to know and how to safely and effectively employ the aircraft in all areas, we'd make em HACs and LVL IIIs out of the RAG and save all those training hours for DDAs and XCs.

Since almost every community is under the ACTC program, I'm sure the same goes pretty much across the board.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Probably due to the fact that there weren't any aircraft in 1776. Maybe.

Yeah, I'm talking since WWI...nice try.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

I'm fairly sure that regardless of the community, FNGs all show up to their first command unable to walk and chew gum at the same time, let alone do something tactically skilled.

Finally. That's my freaking point.

 

[A4sForever]

Yeah, I'm talking since WWI...nice try.

SINCE WWI ... hmmmmmmmmmmm ... now, since the inception of Naval Aviation and a viable Submarine Force ... who 'wins naval wars' since WWI ... ???

Which, of course, has nothing to do w/ WINGS ... as WINGS are for Naval Aviators ... not for wannabe's ...

 

[scoolbubba]

Yeah, I'm talking since WWI...nice try.

How bout since the end of WWII? How often do we send the BBs in, 16 inchers blazing away at an enemy of comparable strength? How many SWOs have lost their lives at SWOS? How many OODs have bought their farm teaching the JOOD how to conduct a rendezvous at a blistering 8 knots?

Now...how many VT IPs ate it when a stud kicked the rudder at 500 feet at the 90? How many hornet drivers bite it at the shitty end of a SAM over Iraq/Kosovo/whatever the shithole du jour happens to be? How many aviators have fucked away a join up, or a midair swap, and killed everyone on board?

You can't honestly sit there and tell me everytime you cross the brow and take the ship out of the harbor you go "don't fuck this up, because this ship will kill you if you do"...I'd be willing to bet it's more like "don't fuck this up, because the CO/XO/DH is sleeping in his stateroom and he will really be peeved if I dick this driving in a square in the big ocean thing up."

Either way, SWOs still do put their neck on the line, albeit way slower and in a 9000 ton warship, everyday. The same cannot (generally) be said for the AMDO, Intel-O, Shore Chop, etc.

Yea...We can measure dicks all day, but the point is no one outside the URL deserves a warfare pin.

 

[webmaster]

FNGs all show up to their first command unable to walk and chew gum at the same time, let alone do something tactically skilled. ....
Since almost every community is under the ACTC program, I'm sure the same goes pretty much across the board.

Finally. That's my freaking point.

Point maybe, major distinction between Aviation and every other community, yes. No other community besides Aviation has the full continuum of training for both positional (flying the aircraft safely in accordance with NATOPs and 3710) to the full arc of specific Warfare Tactics that is encompassed in ACTC Level qualifications. We in the Aviation community do not stop at Wings, and it continues through a very stringent set of training standards in EVERY Aviation Community based on PQS, performance, oral, quiz and in flight requirements, with many of them relying on proficiency to maintain. ACTC Level 100 through 500 qualifications, specifically WTI are all an offshoot of the hard work and development made by the TACAIR community. It is now reflected in all of Naval Aviation Enterprise (NAE), and as it stands now, there isn't anything like it in either SWO or Submarines.

I will agree there are many things to improve upon in Aviation, but seeing the problems that SWO or Submarines are facing maintaining Tactical readiness (let alone proficiency or knowledge in core areas of the fight), we currently have a system that WORKS even with its flaws. Our Wings of Gold represent that entire arc of specific refinement and improvement on tactical expertise as each Pilot or NFO works to advance in their ACTC Levels.

There really is no comparison.

 

[A4sForever]

Point maybe ... major distinction .... full continuum ... positional.... to the full arc .... stringent set of training standards.... Level 100 through 500 qualifications ... core areas .... a system that WORKS even with its flaws ... Wings of Gold represent ... entire arc of specific refinement ... on tactical expertise .... in their ACTC Levels.

There really is no comparison.

No shit. Holy shit. Fuck me. I am useless ...

Now THIS IS HOW an Admiral-striker talks, boys & girls ... !!!

Who IS this guy, anyway ... ???

 

[webmaster]

No shit. Holy shit. Fuck me. I am useless ...

Now THIS IS HOW an Admiral-striker talks, boys & girls ... !!!

Who IS this guy, anyway ... ???

Yeah, yeah, mea culpa, I will put the kool aid down and step away slowly. Unlike my sarcastic P8/P3 42% thread where I was intentionally being an ass...

 

[MAKE VAPES]

Air force Space doooooches "warfare" insignia.... and yes, they wear flight suits, don't own and will never own a log book.

"Wings" for all my friends, doesn't mean shit. Equal Opportunity ass clownery... welcome to the Air Force. I think all involved should be flogged into have a "winging" party on the scale of real wings.

 

[Cleonard19]

WRT da ribbons, for those who may not know, CNIC issued an awards memo earlier in the year for all shore installations (I believe it was for ALL) to receive...hmmmm... I wanna say a MUC. I'll track down the msg and post later in the week if people actually care.

From Commander, Navy Installation Command Public Affairs

WASHINGTON (NNS) -- Secretary of the Navy Ray Mabus recently awarded the Meritorious Unit Commendation (MUC) award to Commander, Navy Installations Command (CNIC).

Service members and civilian employees of the CONUS and OCONUS CNIC Regions and Installations worldwide are authorized to wear the MUC ribbon effective immediately.

"Over the past three years, CNIC personnel; military, NSPS and NAF employees, have made great strides in shore installation management and is now being recognized for the hard work and dedication. I am proud to be part of a team that has continued to emphasize the importance of 'fleet, fighter and family' in a way that top leadership takes notice. I applaud the 59,000 CNIC men and women who were here to help make this award possible, and I look forward to continuing on this path of excellence," said Anne Davis, deputy commander and executive director, Navy Installations Command.

The award citation reads [in part]: "For meritorious service in support of the Navy Fleet, Fighter, and Family worldwide from Feb. 1, 2006, to Jan. 31, 2009. CNIC, comprising 13 Regions and 79 installations, was reformed and operationalized into an Echelon II adaptive enterprise, with the mission to reverse decline of shore operational readiness across 17 critical mission areas. In execution, CNIC became the technical authority and single process owner, accountable for shore readiness across all warfare enterprise and providers."

The award continued: "Through an innovative partnership with Naval Facilities Command, CNIC significantly improved the advocacy, sustainability, and standardization of Navy shore platforms, to include environmental, safety, force protection and public works. The strategic vision, design and execution of Navy shore command, control, and communications capabilities, through networked region and installation operations centers, created robust crisis action planning, defense support to civil authorities, Navy personnel accountability, and shore capabilities ready for tasking in a natural or man-made casualty."

The Navy Installations Command provides the Navy with fleet operations, shore facilities and quality of life services and programs in direct support of the fleet, fighter and family.

To read more about the CNIC and this unique award and the list of those authorized to wear it, visit www.cnic.navy.mil.

For more news from Commander, Navy Installations Command, visit www.navy.mil/local/cni/.

From the CNIC website

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Point maybe, major distinction between Aviation and every other community, yes. No other community besides Aviation has the full continuum of training for both positional (flying the aircraft safely in accordance with NATOPs and 3710) to the full arc of specific Warfare Tactics that is encompassed in ACTC Level qualifications. We in the Aviation community do not stop at Wings, and it continues through a very stringent set of training standards in EVERY Aviation Community based on PQS, performance, oral, quiz and in flight requirements, with many of them relying on proficiency to maintain. ACTC Level 100 through 500 qualifications, specifically WTI are all an offshoot of the hard work and development made by the TACAIR community. It is now reflected in all of Naval Aviation Enterprise (NAE), and as it stands now, there isn't anything like it in either SWO or Submarines.

I will agree there are many things to improve upon in Aviation, but seeing the problems that SWO or Submarines are facing maintaining Tactical readiness (let alone proficiency or knowledge in core areas of the fight), we currently have a system that WORKS even with its flaws. Our Wings of Gold represent that entire arc of specific refinement and improvement on tactical expertise as each Pilot or NFO works to advance in their ACTC Levels.

There really is no comparison.

I agree with your points. I certainly do not dispute the quality of training, both initial and ongoing, the navy provides for its aviators. And I'll be the first to admit that the quality of training for SWO's could be vastly improved. My points were mainly targeted at Masterbates et al line of thinking where finishing a PQS doesn't compare to finishing flight school or power school regarding warfare pins. Completing a school doesn't equate to being warfare qualified (IMHO). If you want to say that your wings demonstrate you've qualified as a pilot or flight officer, that's fine. I'm just questioning the philosophy behind wings being labeled a warfare pin and being compared to other warfare pins (SWO, Dolphins, Trident).

Hell, even SEALs who are more bad ass coming out of their training than most of us here will ever be have to earn their warfare pin AFTER they get to their unit.