NOSC Shooting

[Brett327]

I'm not talking about insurgency, per se, but radicalization more specifically. If you look at all the ISIS recruits flowing into Syria from Europe and understand something about the immigrant populations there, you'll understand what I'm talking about WRT the powerless and aggrieved. Whatever people's actual circumstances are, there's a narrative they buy into. I don't deny that the narrative has a strong religious dimension. Some are drawn to the cause out of religious zeal, others not so much. I'm not opposed to labeling events as Islamic extremist terrorism if that applies, but framing the larger struggle as a religious conflict carries very little real benefit while potentially presenting some very real negative impacts.

I do not agree that emphasizing the religious nature of these attacks will somehow motivate moderate Muslims to police their own. Rubbing their noses in the misdeeds of their coreligionists is more likely, IMO, to alienate moderates or make them indifferent.

 

[jmcquate]

Dude, I'm sorry. I agree that PC SJW culture is part of the problem. But the rest is bigoted bullshit, and insulting to plenty of American Muslims who are assimilated and sometimes even serving in uniform. There is a subset of Islamic thought which is incompatible with Western values. That doesn't mean all two billion-odd people of that faith are the same.

I think you have it backwards. It's a subset of Islamic thought that is compatible with western values. My point was we need to make it bigger.

I can't disagree with this more. Fundamentalist Islam is incompatible with the west. Some will evolve out of that thinking. Some will join up. The majority, just like the many Catholics who don't spend every Sunday protesting at the local Planned Parenthood, assimilate just fine and see the bigger message and value (in my opinion) in their religion.
Just like we have the Westboro Baptist Church, Ultra-Orthodox Jews, & Amish folks, we will have some Muslims who will not adapt to the environment. The majority of those will probably still do so peacefully, like the Amish, and maybe some will fail to adapt in some non-violent but shitty way, like the WBC. Some, like the guy in this case and others like him, will be driven to violence. It's the price we pay for our freedoms. You're free to own guns and think crazy shit in our country. If you skirt the system right, you can do both simultaneously.

Your kind of making my point. Only one of those religions that you mentioned resorts to violence in the name of their religion en mass.

Yea, all these Indonesians, Indians, and Nigerian Muslims are really fucking up our world. They need to be Christianized, pronto.

I never stated or implied anything of the sort.

 

[wink]

And to that point, it disheartens me that so many Americans are raising the war cry against the Muslim community at large ("Get them out of our country!"). I think that mindset is creating more division and opposition than we're already facing, not to mention devaluing and degrading our country. It's also becoming a giant red herring for people to bite off on.

I disagree that "so many Americans" are calling for deportations of Muslims and setting lose the dogs of war on them. There will always be a few, very few, that will have no problem voicing an extreme opinion (7% of Americans think Elvis is alive). Those very few that get themselves on TV or talk radio get no traction. No one responds to that kind of talk in this country. It is a testament to America that there have been so few cases of retribution violence against Muslins that it is statically insignificant. You don't see organized boycotts of Muslim business get anywhere or picket lines at mosques or Islamic schools across the country. It is Muslim countries, even so called moderate countries, that can't put up with other religions in their midst. Even those that are no physical threat. Next time CAIR or some other Islamist apologist organization whines about Muslin community safety I want someone to bring up the tally.

 

[Spekkio]

I never stated or implied anything of the sort.

No, what you said was that Islam was incompatible with the west. That's completely not true. Most of the world's Muslims are from nations that have strong ties and friendly diplomatic relations with the U.S. Most people from these nations view America in a very positive light.

I suppose groups like Al Qaeda and IS have accomplished one thing, and that's making the word 'Muslim' in most Americans' minds be synonymous with hankerchief wearing, AK-47 toting rebels in the desert who love to behead people on youtube.

 

[jmcquate]

No, what you said was that Islam was incompatible with the west. That's completely not true. Most of the world's Muslims are from nations that have strong ties and friendly diplomatic relations with the U.S. Most people from these nations view America in a very positive light.

I suppose groups like Al Qaeda and IS have accomplished one thing, and that's making the word 'Muslim' in most Americans' minds be synonymous with hankerchief wearing, AK-47 toting rebels in the desert who love to behead people on youtube.

No, you stated that I implied Muslims are "fucking up our world" and that "they need to be Christianize, pronto" I never said that. Nor do I believe that.

 

[insanebikerboy]

I don't deny that the narrative has a strong religious dimension. Some are drawn to the cause out of religious zeal, others not so much. I'm not opposed to labeling events as Islamic extremist terrorism if that applies, but framing the larger struggle as a religious conflict carries very little real benefit while potentially presenting some very real negative impacts.

Therein lies the rub though. The various radical groups justify and base everything off of the Koran. Daesh wants Sharia law implemented everywhere, and Sharia is 100% based on religion.

I agree that the individual motivations of Johnny Jihadist that leaves France to join those dipshits in the desert may vary, however the fact is that the entirety of what is going on is rooted in an interpretation of the Koran.

It's not a religious war from the U.S. point of view but it's for damn sure a religious war for those on the other side.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Just like we have the Westboro Baptist Church, Ultra-Orthodox Jews, & Amish folks, we will have some Muslims who will not adapt to the environment.

Except when you compare the people from the groups you listed, none of them take up arms and shoot up recruiting centers. However, the sad reality is that when Islamic extremism takes hold, it usually ends up with plans and/or actions to kill.

 

[Spekkio]

No, you stated that I implied Muslims are "fucking up our world" and that "they need to be Christianize, pronto" I never said that. Nor do I believe that.

If, in the context of this thread, the word 'incompatible' meant something other than leading to violent conflict... and if by 'change' you meant something other than overhaul the fundamental values of the religion, then I apologize.

If you did mean those things, then I stand by 'fucking up our world' and 'they need to Christianize' as adequate synonyms for your position.

 

[Spekkio]

Except when you compare the people from the groups you listed, none of them take up arms and shoot up recruiting centers. However, the sad reality is that when Islamic extremism takes hold, it usually ends up with plans and/or actions to kill.

No, I suppose not. American protestants just shoot up elementary schools instead. That's much more tasteful.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

No, I suppose not. American protestants just shoot up elementary schools instead. That's much more tasteful.

Feel free to cite examples of elementary schools shot up by killers motivated by Protestantism.

 

[Flash]

Feel free to cite examples elementary schools shot up by killers motivated by Protestantism.

Is this bad enough? Muslims and Christians aren't the only ones who have committed violence in the name of religion recently. The deadliest terrorist attack involving airliners prior to 9/11 was committed by religious extremists, but they weren't Muslim.

Just because these things happen in regions of the world we don't pay as close attention to doesn't mean they don't happen.

 

[Brett327]

Therein lies the rub though. The various radical groups justify and base everything off of the Koran. Daesh wants Sharia law implemented everywhere, and Sharia is 100% based on religion.

I agree that the individual motivations of Johnny Jihadist that leaves France to join those dipshits in the desert may vary, however the fact is that the entirety of what is going on is rooted in an interpretation of the Koran.

It's not a religious war from the U.S. point of view but it's for damn sure a religious war for those on the other side.

Agree completely. ISIS would love nothing more than for the U.S. to define this conflict as Christianity vs. Islam or the West vs. Islam. It serves the narrative they're promoting. I can't figure out why people would offer that up to them for no good reason.

 

[Brett327]

Interesting read. http://www.washingtonpost.com/rweb/...13f6a6-2d7d-11e5-a5ea-cf74396e59ec_story.html

Sounds more like your run of the mill loser than an example of devout Islamic extremism. Now that I think about it, some of the 9/11 terrorists, Islamic extremists though they may have been, were boozing and whoring it up in the days prior to that event. I guess all is forgiven in the eyes of God when you're acting on His behalf.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Interesting read. http://www.washingtonpost.com/rweb/...13f6a6-2d7d-11e5-a5ea-cf74396e59ec_story.html

Sounds more like your run of the mill loser than an example of devout Islamic extremism. Now that I think about it, some of the 9/11 terrorists, Islamic extremists though they may have been, were boozing and whoring it up in the days prior to that event. I guess all is forgiven in the eyes of God when you're acting on His behalf.

How devout do they need to be to meet your standard of Islamic terrorism?

 

[picklesuit]

How devout do they need to be to meet your standard of Islamic terrorism?

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