NOSC Shooting

[VoodooNova]

Considering that is what he claimed, yes. It does.

Thanks for that story. There are psychos all over the place, and they have all kinds of motivations. From the end of your article: "Its members identify themseves as Christians, however, “they are really not Christians in any sense that a christian would accept,” Potok added. Most mainstream American Christians, he said, would find a Phineas Priest’s reading of scripture to be “heretical.” "

A major difference from most "Christian terror groups" and a group like ISIS is that in the case of ISIS, they are more or less interpreting and following their book literally.

Replace Christian with Muslim in that sentence and you'll have the reality, here in the US. Here's another article, which has a section about how groups like ISIS do not follow the Quran literally: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...bd195e-ac64-11e4-ad71-7b9eba0f87d6_story.html

Some excerpts that are relevant-

Kuwait’s emir, Sheik Sabah Ahmed al-Sabah, said the “vicious” killing trampled on the values of Islam. Qatar’s Foreign Ministry called it “a criminal act contravening the tolerant principles of the Islamic faith, human values and international laws and norms.”

In Cairo, the head of Sunni Islam’s most respected center of learning, al-Azhar, said the Islamic State militants merit punishments under Islamic law such as “killing, crucifixion or chopping of the limbs.”
“Islam prohibits the taking of an innocent life,” said the al-Azhar grand sheik, Ahmed al-Tayeb.

Here's another one from around a year ago: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...ect-baghdadi-caliphate-20147744058773906.html

I could find more examples about mainstream Muslim leaders decrying ISIS as a group and declaring their beliefs/actions an affront to Islam. Their interpretation simply is not mainstream Islam (or even following the Quran literally), much like those Christian terrorists would be considered heretical to mainstream Christians.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

That's why I said "more or less literally". If they had crucified or decapitated the pilot then it's all good, right? The fact is that ISIS is following the Quran literally with extra cruelty. Apologists will always find examples of other shitheads doing bad things, so congrats for that.

 

[VoodooNova]

That's why I said "more or less literally". If they had crucified or decapitated the pilot then it's all good, right? The fact is that ISIS is following the Quran literally with extra cruelty. Apologists will always find examples of other shitheads doing bad things, so congrats for that.

So if Christians say that Christian terrorists aren't actual Christians, then they aren't, but if Muslim religious leaders say ISIS is not following the Quran, they still are? This is sort of the problem here. Just because you think they follow it literally, doesn't make it reality. Christian Terrorists believe they're following the literal interpretations of the Bible, just as ISIS believes they are following the Quran literally. It's not being an apologist, it's understanding that the people seek to cause us harm twist and manipulate whatever fundamental documents they can to recruit distraught individuals to their cause. This can be ISIS using the Quran or Christian Identity folks using the Bible. Yet, mainstream individuals from Islam and Christianity decry the respective interpretations as not in line with what their holy book says. The fact is, multiple religious experts/leaders within the religion disagree with you, much like how Christian leaders disagree that Christian extremists follow the religion literally.

 

[jmcquate]

Voodoo, cut out the moral equivalency crap. That's part of the problem. Read this and learn.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

[Treetop Flyer]

So if Christians say that Christian terrorists aren't actual Christians, then they aren't, but if Muslim religious leaders say ISIS is not following the Quran, they still are? This is sort of the problem here. Just because you think they follow it literally, doesn't make it reality. Christian Terrorists believe they're following the literal interpretations of the Bible, just as ISIS believes they are following the Quran literally. It's not being an apologist, it's understanding that the people seek to cause us harm twist and manipulate whatever fundamental documents they can to recruit distraught individuals to their cause. This can be ISIS using the Quran or Christian Identity folks using the Bible. Yet, mainstream individuals from Islam and Christianity decry the respective interpretations as not in line with what their holy book says. The fact is, multiple religious experts/leaders within the religion disagree with you, much like how Christian leaders disagree that Christian extremists follow the religion literally.

Most of the religious leaders from that article took issue with the way they killed the Jordanian pilot. For that matter, the article even mentions that most of the outcry was over the fact that they killed a Muslim like that, not that they killed someone. Of course mainstream Muslims are trying to marginalize ISIS. I hope they continue. However, ISIS is mostly following the Quran literally. That's a fact.

I mention apologists because as a country is facing a real threat from Islamic terrorists. Would you say we are facing much of a threat from Christian terror groups? Much of Islamic terrorism is rooted in what is actually written in their holy book, and thousands of westerners are flocking to participate. Hearing someone say "but but but some Christians have killed people too sometimes!" doesn't mean a lot.

 

[VoodooNova]

Most of the religious leaders from that article took issue with the way they killed the Jordanian pilot. For that matter, the article even mentions that most of the outcry was over the fact that they killed a Muslim like that, not that they killed someone. Of course mainstream Muslims are trying to marginalize ISIS. I hope they continue. However, ISIS is mostly following the Quran literally. That's a fact.

I mention apologists because as a country is facing a real threat from Islamic terrorists. Would you say we are facing much of a threat from Christian terror groups? Much of Islamic terrorism is rooted in what is actually written in their holy book, and thousands of westerners are flocking to participate. Hearing someone say "but but but some Christians have killed people too sometimes!" doesn't mean a lot.

As a country, I think we're facing a bigger threat from domestic anti-government, anti-police individuals, influenced by their perception of the actions taken by Congress, the President, local police, etc, without religion in the equation. People who would not normally be listed or be thought of as possible terrorists. Looking at that database, in the US, we have fewer radical Islamists conducting terrorist attacks than we do with those unaffiliated with religion. Are groups like ISIS a threat? Yes, very much so. There's no denying that they have the capabilities to influence lone wolfs. However, those actually going through with attacks in the US over the last few years have not been.

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search...success=yes&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=

Of all the attacks in 2014, only 2 were related to Islam in any fashion. The rest were KKK, Sovereign Citizens, Anarchists and various individuals who are anti-government, yet not necessarily motivated through radical religion.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

As a country, I think we're facing a bigger threat from domestic anti-government, anti-police individuals, influenced by their perception of the actions taken by Congress, the President, local police, etc, without religion in the equation. People who would not normally be listed or be thought of as possible terrorists. Looking at that database, in the US, we have fewer radical Islamists conducting terrorist attacks than we do with those unaffiliated with religion. Are groups like ISIS a threat? Yes, very much so. There's no denying that they have the capabilities to influence lone wolfs. However, those actually going through with attacks in the US over the last few years have not been.

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search...success=yes&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=

Of all the attacks in 2014, only 2 were related to Islam in any fashion. The rest were KKK, Sovereign Citizens, Anarchists and various individuals who are anti-government, yet not necessarily motivated through radical religion.

I don't have flash player on my iPad so I'll have to take your word for it. Either way, it's pretty clear that Islamic terrorists have a pretty big lead in damage done to us at home and abroad. A snapshot of just 2014 isn't very compelling.

 

[jmcquate]

As a country, I think we're facing a bigger threat from domestic anti-government, anti-police individuals, influenced by their perception of the actions taken by Congress, the President, local police, etc, without religion in the equation. People who would not normally be listed or be thought of as possible terrorists. Looking at that database, in the US, we have fewer radical Islamists conducting terrorist attacks than we do with those unaffiliated with religion. Are groups like ISIS a threat? Yes, very much so. There's no denying that they have the capabilities to influence lone wolfs. However, those actually going through with attacks in the US over the last few years have not been.

http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search...success=yes&casualties_type=b&casualties_max=

Of all the attacks in 2014, only 2 were related to Islam in any fashion. The rest were KKK, Sovereign Citizens, Anarchists and various individuals who are anti-government, yet not necessarily motivated through radical religion.

I see that someone got their Homeland Security talking points. Be careful with these statistics. The White House has pushed this narrative multiple times but it never gained any traction.

 

[VoodooNova]

I see that someone got their Homeland Security talking points. Be careful with these statistics. The White House has pushed this narrative multiple times but it never gained any traction.

I haven't seen what Homeland Security has been saying, let alone the White House. Knowing who is doing what and why is important, regardless of the tally. The information is there. I don't need someone to tell me what I should be saying about something based on what they think. I can draw my own conclusions.

As for damage done, I took the most recent year for simplicity sake. That database goes back decades and includes data from all countries. It's interesting to look at.

 

[Pags]

Those in this thread that can't come up with a case for Christians murdering for faith based reasons aren't trying very hard, have blinders on, or might be too young to remember the murders and bombings of abortion doctors and clinics.

 

[jmcquate]

Those in this thread that can't come up with a case for Christians murdering for faith based reasons aren't trying very hard, have blinders on, or might be too young to remember the murders and bombings of abortion doctors and clinics.

Oh please Pags, when Presbyterians start flying airliners into Mecca then raise the red flags.

 

[wink]

It's a dig at religion in general. People can proclaim to be devout, or moral, or righteous until they think nobody is watching them. Reference Jim Baker, Jimmy Swaggart, Catholic clergy altar boy-dittling, 9/11 terrorists, UBL porn stash, Chattanooga shooter/stoner, etc.

Can I get an AMEN! for the 99% of us that happen to believe Someone is watching all the time and for that reason alone don't fit your mold.

While some have mentioned that some moderate Islamic leaders have denounced ISIS and others terror in general, it just doesn't compare to the universal denunciation of the Jimmy Swaggerts and Catholic priest pedophiles by not only Christian leaders but the faithful flock as well. You won't find anywhere near the same percentage of rank and file Christians supporting Westboro or an abortion clinic bombing as Muslims that support UBL or maybe even ISIS ( that one I don't know for sure). There is just no comparison to other religionists, especially western Christian's tolerance for violence, and Islam. Eqypt's president al Sisi made it clear himself. Islam has fundamental problems with modernity all over the world. One could argue Islam is where Christianity was 500 years ago or more. To even mention current Christian inspired or associated terror with modern Islamic terror is essentially anachronistic.

 

[azguy]

You won't find anywhere near the same percentage of rank and file Christians supporting Westboro or an abortion clinic bombing as Muslims that support UBL or maybe even ISIS ( that one I don't know for sure).

Uh yeah, quote your source please...

 

[Brett327]

universal denunciation of the... Catholic priest pedophiles by not only Christian leaders...

You're joking, right? Perhaps you missed it, but there were lots of Catholic "leaders" whose first instinct was to cover the whole thing up, hence the widespread scandal. Remember that inconvenient little detail? They were more interested in protecting the institution than doing the right thing. Another in a long list of religious hypocrites.

 

[Pags]

Oh please Pags, when Presbyterians start flying airliners into Mecca then raise the red flags.

I'm not raising a flag. I'm just saying that the claim that Christains have moved on from killing in the name of their faith is incorrect.