Not the best week for Subs...

[xmid]

Not sure I'd want to be TACAMO and have that on my shoulders... hell I still wouldn't want that on my shoulders. You complete your mission, the world just ended...

"If someone asked me if we should bomb Japan, a simple "Yes." By all means sir, drop that fucker, twice! I don't mean to suggest that you're indecisive, Mr. Hunter"

-Captain Ramsey in "Crimson Tide"

*I'm xmid and I do not endorse this quote or support the idea expressed therein. Being reckless and hell bent on nuclear destruction should not be a quality of those in our armed forces*

 

[Fly Navy]

"If someone asked me if we should bomb Japan, a simple "Yes." By all means sir, drop that fucker, twice! I don't mean to suggest that you're indecisive"

Uh, I have no qualms with saying dropping the bombs on Japan was the right thing to do. So, what's your point?

 

[xmid]

Easy, the Crimson Tide quote just immediately popped in to my head, about the burden. The context in the movie was exactly what you are talking about.


*Edit* and I am in no way saying I agree with the quote. Just that that part of the movie is a very similar discussion as the one here.

 

[xmid]

Well Sir, I don't usually put what I'm saying in quotes... And people are quoting movies on here all the time. Maybe mine just wasn't picked up to fast. I will cite my sources next time.

 

[xmid]

Sources cited.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Ok everybody, let's settle down. We all know that Crimson Tide was just a movie, make believe if you will, and that Airwarriors is the real deal.

 

[xmid]

I've got some pretty good storys that my dad has told me about some pretty hairy moments in Kef back in the day. I'll try to talk his old bones in to posting some tommorrow if none of its beyond the scope of a public forum.

 

[Brett327]

Then you know what XMID...you are not the kind of guy needed for a job like that.
It is triggerhappy guys like you that cause friendly fire...

I feel compelled to say that anyone who, when presented with the task of nuking tens of thousands of civilians, doesn't pause (not hesitate) to consider the magnitude (not morality) of his actions is a hollow man. Sometimes duty demands that we perform difficult yet righteous acts, but that ought not detract from their immensity.

Brett

 

[Fly Navy]

I feel compelled to say that anyone who, when presented with the task of nuking tens of thousands of civilians, doesn't pause (not hesitate) to consider the magnitude (not morality) of his actions is a hollow man. Sometimes duty demands that we perform difficult yet righteous acts, but that ought not detract from their immensity.

Brett

Well said

 

[xmid]

I agree absolutely, I think/hope there are enough checks in place to keep out those who won't, and those who are all too willing....You know?

I agree with every point raised. Once again, I don't share the beliefs of a fictional hell bent sub captain. When I watch that movie it makes me question what the result would be should the order to launch actually go out. Would there be a pause? Would there be subs that failed to launch because of the captains beliefs in the pointlessness of the act? Would peoples sense of "professionalism" cause them to follow through? I mean if everyone dies and there is a nuclear armagedon what is the point? As said in the movie, "I believe war is the enemy" in the nuclear arena.

 

[Steve Wilkins]

Do we really want to start getting into Clausewitz here?

 

[Brett327]

I agree with every point raised. Once again, I don't share the beliefs of a fictional hell bent sub captain. When I actually watched that movie it made me question what the result would actually be should the order to launch actually go out. Would there be a pause? Would there be subs that failed to launch because of the captains beliefs in the pointlessness of the act? I mean if everyone dies and there is a nuclear armagedon what is the point? As said in the movie, "I believe war is the enemy" in the nuclear arena.

I've heard interesting banter (perhaps on AW) from A-6 guys who would joke about pickling their nukes off the cat in a SIOP scenario and doing a max conserve profile to the nearest sparsely populated area to find refuge from the storm - eject over Bikini Atoll and hope for the best - oh the irony! Frankly, if the system is going to work, operators really can't afford to be injecting their own judgment or morality in those situations. Obviously, the movie in question presents an unlikely ambiguous scenario upon which the plot is built, and in that situation, the commander's judgment would come into play.

Brett

 

[Fly Navy]

I've heard interesting banter (perhaps on AW) from A-6 guys who would joke about pickling their nukes off the cat in a SIOP scenario and doing a max conserve profile to the nearest sparsely populated area to find refuge from the storm - eject over Bikini Atoll and hope for the best - oh the irony! Frankly, if the system is going to work, operators really can't afford to be injecting their own judgment or morality in those situations. Obviously, the movie in question presents an unlikely ambiguous scenario upon which the plot is built, and in that situation, the commander's judgment would come into play.

Brett

The stories some of the old A-4/A-7/A-6 drivers here would tell us about training for SIOP situations were unreal. They were all convinced they were going to die if it happened, and some of the stuff they trained to were just crazy.

 

[Brett327]

The stories some of the old A-4/A-7/A-6 drivers here would tell us about training for SIOP situations were unreal. They were all convinced they were going to die if it happened, and some of the stuff they trained to were just crazy.

Prior to the START II treaty in '93, we used to train regularly in the deployment of nukes vs. subs in VP. The nuclear depth bomb - when it absolutely, positively has to arrive on target on time. The shape we carried was relatively low yield and was to detonate under water, but we all assumed we'd perish in the process.

Brett

 

[Fly Navy]

Considering the number of subs they had, probably a necessary option!