OCS 08JUL2024 SNA/SNFO BOARD

[Paknam141]

Take this with a grain of salt because it’s entirely different for everyone, BUT, these are my first hand experiences from friends I attended OCS with. I’d also like to preface I’m not trying to spark fear in you but rather give you an idea of what you might expect. You will all see a flight doc week 1. They are more than likely going to send you out of town to a “specialist” to determine whether or not your previous diagnosis can be waived. Basically they’re going to have you take a bunch of tests and determine whether you can function off meds. Again this happened to at least 2 people I attended OCS with. Both these 2 ended up getting PQed and are starting primary with me in a month. The worst part to all of this is it takes weeks to see that specialist while attending OCS. It then takes NAMI a while to get the documents from the specialist and make their decision. They didn’t get their PQ letters until I wanna say week 9 or 10 of OCS. Which leads to the fear of almost completing OCS with the chance of still being DQed by NAMI.

I would also like to add to this. I am currently in what is lovingly known as Student Pool after graduation from OCS class 14-24. You go to the Student Pool after graduation if you are not medically cleared. Also, you are not allowed to assume the rank of Ensign until medically clearing with NAMI. That means you're stuck at NS Newport in King Hall for the foreseeable future on E-5 pay. I'm an SNA and I am currently waiting on my ADHD waiver after being sent out a week after graduation (graduation AUG 2 app. date AUG 12) to my last appointment. I'm expecting another month before getting orders to Pensacola if everything goes well. For the last classes as old as 10-24 this has been the experience if you need waivers. Common ones usually sending people to the Student Pool after graduation are Asthma, ADHD, Mental Health, and Ortho. My advice is if you needed waivers for your entry after MEPS bring all the documents you provided to get your waivers to OCS and hold onto them until the Med liaison asks you for them. This by far is the most frustrating process I've ever dealt with and kills your motivation around week 9-10 when you realize you're going to the Student Pool. I hate to say it but I guess it will get worse unless Big Navy changes the process considering my class had only about 15 aviators and 6 of us are in the Student pool. The next classes for the fiscal year are aviator-heavy and I expect tons to not be medically cleared by graduation. 17-24, 15ish aviators, 01-25, 75 aviators, 02-25 aviator heavy unknown number, and 03-25 also rumored to be aviator heavy. Like I told 17-24 when I was their Candio. "prepare to be here after graduation for a while and make the decision on what your course of action will be if they say no redesignate or DOR." Those who wanted to DOR early after hearing this I said this. "you've been given a chance few ever get to dream of and would much rather wonder "what if" for the rest of your life or have them tell you no".

Good luck to you all. OCS is the most fun you never want to have again. Class 14-24 SNA

 

[Paknam141]

I would also like to add to this. I am currently in what is lovingly known as Student Pool after graduation from OCS class 14-24. You go to the Student Pool after graduation if you are not medically cleared. Also, you are not allowed to assume the rank of Ensign until medically clearing with NAMI. That means you're stuck at NS Newport in King Hall for the foreseeable future on E-5 pay. I'm an SNA and I am currently waiting on my ADHD waiver after being sent out a week after graduation (graduation AUG 2 app. date AUG 12) to my last appointment. I'm expecting another month before getting orders to Pensacola if everything goes well. For the last classes as old as 10-24 this has been the experience if you need waivers. Common ones usually sending people to the Student Pool after graduation are Asthma, ADHD, Mental Health, and Ortho. My advice is if you needed waivers for your entry after MEPS bring all the documents you provided to get your waivers to OCS and hold onto them until the Med liaison asks you for them. This by far is the most frustrating process I've ever dealt with and kills your motivation around week 9-10 when you realize you're going to the Student Pool. I hate to say it but I guess it will get worse unless Big Navy changes the process considering my class had only about 15 aviators and 6 of us are in the Student pool. The next classes for the fiscal year are aviator-heavy and I expect tons to not be medically cleared by graduation. 17-24, 15ish aviators, 01-25, 75 aviators, 02-25 aviator heavy unknown number, and 03-25 also rumored to be aviator heavy. Like I told 17-24 when I was their Candio. "prepare to be here after graduation for a while and make the decision on what your course of action will be if they say no redesignate or DOR." Those who wanted to DOR early after hearing this I said this. "you've been given a chance few ever get to dream of and would much rather wonder "what if" for the rest of your life or have them tell you no".

Good luck to you all. OCS is the most fun you never want to have again. Class 14-24 SNA

Wanted to add this as I was asked this via direct message and I'm not at all shy about my medical process if it helps people get out of Newport on time and to Pensacola.

Here is a history of my ADHD. I was doing badly in college and was forced by my parents to take the full battery test. low point in my life for sure, but I was diagnosed and prescribed Adderall in my sophomore year of college. Took the medication from May till December of the the year and stopped taking it all altogether afterward in 2022 ish.

I applied to the Navy after getting my degree in 2023 and was picked up in March of 2024. I was required to get a waiver which they asked for these documents. College transcript, written statements of 504 plans from the college, prescription records, and letters from an employer and college professor. Went to MEPS in January and asked me in the interview about the prescription it flagged it on my medical record. I told the doctor I had honestly forgotten about taking the meds and the doctor didn't seem to be too upset. The doctor there informed me I was DQ'd pending waiver review. I was granted the waiver in late February that year.

Upon showing up at OCS and after my flight physical I was informed the waiver granted at MEPS was just for Enlistment. Meaning just to be able to show up for OCS and not for flight qualification. This is the same for all waivers granted as far as I understand it. Unless the waiver is just not of concern.

After this, I was told I had to undergo a psych evaluation by a military doctor and then wait for my new flight-specific waiver to be approved currently what I'm waiting on. They didn't send me to this doctor till after I completed the program on AUG 2nd due to what they are saying is "backed up processing". The information they ask you for is the same except they want a letter from your prescribing doctor saying you're all good to go. Sadly I don't have a lot of information on how many get approved or what they are looking for but from what I've seen most med DQs are from eyes or underlying serious conditions. The test is simple and tries to show a lack of focus and memory recall you can look up how the test is given online or if you've taken one of these tests they are very similar and in my opinion easier.

I hope this helped.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

I hope this helped.

During the application process, once you clear MEPS and your recruiter sends all the paperwork to Navy Recruiting Command (N33, Medical Waivers and Standards Office), they will review everything, including a basic review on special programs (think vision for aviation) and determine if you’re qualified or not. All officers physicals are sent to N33 and a decision letter is provided. In that letter, it’ll say “defer to NAMI for suitably for aviation” since N33 doesn’t have the capability or bandwidth to conduct and review NAMI physicals.

Not every recruiter is the same but the good ones will often remind applicants they will undergo another physical and exam/review at OCS.

 

[fearedengineer]

why is the Navy picking up so many aviators?

 

[CarterL]

why is the Navy picking up so many aviators?

I’ve heard retention past that minimum service requirement is pretty bad. Also attrition during OCS / flight school could be a factor. I’d image the NAVY is trying to front load aviators to solve their number issues.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

I’ve heard retention past that minimum service requirement is pretty bad. Also attrition during OCS / flight school could be a factor. I’d image the NAVY is trying to front load aviators to solve their number issues.

Retention has nothing to do with accessions.

Aviation for the most part has had high accession numbers.

 

[Danger95]

why is the Navy picking up so many aviators?

https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedings/2024/august/how-rebalance-naval-aviation-training?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR1S_rLFB9Ri1q4xZG0mXihQjObz7ckrYTngQcL8Xnd922lHzeQ1wVYrd28_aem_qNwhx0-c9zZ1Tjasw9hMZg

 

[CarterL]

Retention has nothing to do with accessions.

Aviation for the most part has had high accession numbers.

In what world does retention not dictate accession?

If every single aviator stayed around after their minimum service commitment and filled the required billets, you’re saying the navy would continue to accept SNA’s at the exact same rate that they currently are? That would lead to over manning and many other issues.

Pretty sure supply= demand in this case.

The Navy has a problem retaining senior level aviators ( especially in the VFA communities) This shortage causes production issues due to lack of IP’s, etc…

”The consequences of underproduction are dire: fewer aviators produced in flight school means a shortage of instructor pilots (IPs) for production tours, a reduction in second sea-tour billets filled, and operational department head shortages. Moreover, underproduction forces the Navy Personnel Command (PERS) to man fleet squadrons later in the workup cycle, resulting in the newest aviators missing crucial predeployment events. While there were fewer aviators created during this period, demand for naval aviation remains high, stretching qualified aviators thin. This is unacceptable.”

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

In what world does retention not dictate accession?

If every single aviator stayed around after their minimum service commitment and filled the required billets, you’re saying the navy would continue to accept SNA’s at the exact same rate that they currently are? That would lead to over manning and many other issues.

Pretty sure supply= demand in this case.

The Navy has a problem retaining senior level aviators ( especially in the VFA communities) This shortage causes production issues due to lack of IP’s, etc…

”The consequences of underproduction are dire: fewer aviators produced in flight school means a shortage of instructor pilots (IPs) for production tours, a reduction in second sea-tour billets filled, and operational department head shortages. Moreover, underproduction forces the Navy Personnel Command (PERS) to man fleet squadrons later in the workup cycle, resulting in the newest aviators missing crucial predeployment events. While there were fewer aviators created during this period, demand for naval aviation remains high, stretching qualified aviators thin. This is unacceptable.”

How is increasing O-1's going to fix a retention problem with O-3s and O-4s, with around 10+ years of commissioned service? That's like saying, "we need more kindergartners to immediately increase the amount of high schoolers".

 

[CarterL]

How is increasing O-1's going to fix a retention problem with O-3s and O-4s, with around 10+ years of commissioned service? That's like saying, "we need more kindergartners to immediately increase the amount of high schoolers".

Last I checked… All 0-3’s and 0-4’s started off as 0-1’s.

That is exactly what I’m saying, except there is no “immediate” solution. This is called forecasting and projecting demand.

 

[Paknam141]

How is increasing O-1's going to fix a retention problem with O-3s and O-4s, with around 10+ years of commissioned service? That's like saying, "we need more kindergartners to immediately increase the amount of high schoolers".

because Unless they start allowing a ton of lateral transfers from other designators or a direct commissioning program for individuals with say an ATP(similar to ODS and just giving them say LT for having so many hours flying). So yes bringing new 0-1 aviators is the only way to replace those leaving.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

Last I checked… All 0-3’s and 0-4’s started off as 0-1’s.

That is exactly what I’m saying, except there is no “immediate” solution. This is called forecasting and projecting demand.

because Unless they start allowing a ton of lateral transfers from other designators or a direct commissioning program for individuals with say an ATP(similar to ODS and just giving them say LT for having so many hours flying). So yes bringing new 0-1 aviators is the only way to replace those leaving.

So both of you are implying there is absolutely nothing the aviation community can do now/soon to improve retention. So they're SOL for the next 10+ years?

Accession requirements are driven by the need for O-1 and O-2s, in this case flight school (as what the article mentioned). When flight school was significantly backed a few years back, the accession numbers went down - regardless of what retention numbers were. Now that the flight school pipeline is opening/continues to open - that allows for the opportunity to flow more O-1s/ENS in from the commissioning sources.

Additionally, on the OCS front, they are the only accession source that can support shortfalls from Navy ROTC and USNA. If a Midshipman, who is service assigned aviation, drops (for a variety of reasons such as medical, legal, or just didn't want to commission), they cannot be replaced because all other Midshipmen already have their service assignment. So, that is where Navy Recruiting Command comes in to make up for the loss.

For retention, both the community and big Navy CAN improve retention for a variety of things, such as bonuses or offering more career flexibility. Additionally, for gapped department head billets, they can be filled from the reserve side, which I have seen, in which a qualified reserve naval aviator comes back on active duty to cover the gap.

 

[Paknam141]

During the application process, once you clear MEPS and your recruiter sends all the paperwork to Navy Recruiting Command (N33, Medical Waivers and Standards Office), they will review everything, including a basic review on special programs (think vision for aviation) and determine if you’re qualified or not. All officers physicals are sent to N33 and a decision letter is provided. In that letter, it’ll say “defer to NAMI for suitably for aviation” since N33 doesn’t have the capability or bandwidth to conduct and review NAMI physicals.

Not every recruiter is the same but the good ones will often remind applicants they will undergo another physical and exam/review at OCS.

I was the INDOC medical liaison (MedBod) for two classes at OCS in my Candio faze since they pushed 17-24 a week early. For both 17-24 (15ish aviators) and 01-25(75 Aviators), all aviators needed to re-up any waivers they were granted at MEPS for flight. What I'm getting at is it better for them to come with all the information they used to get the first waiver. They will have to present that information again for NAMI to approve them. If you look at the waivers granted for MEPS very few if any are flight they all specifically say "Waiver for Enlistment".

 

[CarterL]

So both of you are implying there is absolutely nothing the aviation community can do now/soon to improve retention. So they're SOL for the next 10+ years?

Accession requirements are driven by the need for O-1 and O-2s, in this case flight school (as what the article mentioned). When flight school was significantly backed a few years back, the accession numbers went down - regardless of what retention numbers were. Now that the flight school pipeline is opening/continues to open - that allows for the opportunity to flow more O-1s/ENS in from the commissioning sources.

Additionally, on the OCS front, they are the only accession source that can support shortfalls from Navy ROTC and USNA. If a Midshipman, who is service assigned aviation, drops (for a variety of reasons such as medical, legal, or just didn't want to commission), they cannot be replaced because all other Midshipmen already have their service assignment. So, that is where Navy Recruiting Command comes in to make up for the loss.

For retention, both the community and big Navy CAN improve retention for a variety of things, such as bonuses or offering more career flexibility. Additionally, for gapped department head billets, they can be filled from the reserve side, which I have seen, in which a qualified reserve naval aviator comes back on active duty to cover the gap.

The original question was: ” why is the Navy picking up so many aviators?”

I argued that the gapped billets and increased workload for qualified aviators necessitated an increase in aviators through the training pipelines.

Simple supply vs demand question.
I do not have enough experience or information to argue what can be done better to increase retention.

 

[FormerRecruitingGuru]

I was the INDOC medical liaison (MedBod) for two classes at OCS in my Candio faze since they pushed 17-24 a week early. For both 17-24 (15ish aviators) and 01-25(75 Aviators), all aviators needed to re-up any waivers they were granted at MEPS for flight. What I'm getting at is it better for them to come with all the information they used to get the first waiver. They will have to present that information again for NAMI to approve them. If you look at the waivers granted for MEPS very few if any are flight they all specifically say "Waiver for Enlistment".

MEPS doesn’t grant waivers, they provide a recommendation to navy recruiting command (and fellow military services) who will review and decide on a service related waiver. For officer applicants navy recruiting command uses medical standards for officer and will defer specific special duty requirements (aviation, NSW, submarine duty, etc.) to the applicable medical decision authorities (NAMI, etc.).