That is what happens when you give a bunch of thugs weapons and call them a military........"Command and control? We don't need no stinking command and control!"
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Pentagon says ships harassed by Iran
- Thread starter Achilles
- Start date
That is what happens when you give a bunch of thugs weapons and call them a military........"Command and control? We don't need no stinking command and control!"
I'm really surprised the U.S. ships did not fire, unfortunately.
Shows you what I know about big boats and about shutting my yapper...Still though, a 35 foot hole and 17 dead sailors sadly plays TOO WELL in the media.
It seems all the non-winged folks here think we're at war with Iran... Folks, tensions may be swinging back and forth, but we're not at war with them. While what they did is straddling the fence on harassment and overt hostility, there were no shots fired, no explosions... and like said before, QUIT asking about ROE. No one in their right mind would post that here.
Your right, lets let Iranian terrorists kill some american sailors at see before we see it fit to open fire on some speedboats getting dangerously close to our ships at sea...
Oh for crying out loud, have you ever been to the Gulf or the North Arabian Sea? If so, then you should definitely know if we shot up every boat and aircraft that got close to our ships, we'd run out of ammo. What was done was correct, they were readying to fire and the Iranians got the clue. If they didn't and got shot up, it would have been justified. But going around shooting everything that comes close to you... please. International waters are just that, international waters. Same with airspace.
As a guy who was directly involved in the USS Vincennes Airbus shoot down and directly contributed to the CO's decision making process during that action, you're over simplified generalization really pisses me off.
You were a COD aircrewman. You know nothing of the ROE and the procedures ROE dictates. I was flying in direct support of the Vincennes and providing her radar & ESM data of the ongoing battle between that ship, Iranian Boghammers (similar speed boats to this incident), the Vincennes helo and what we all believed were Iranian F-14s. We followed the ROE explicitly and to this day I believe taking the shot on the info available was the right action. But I also live with the guilt of contributing to 290 non-combatant deaths. I can sleep at night because we did follow the ROE and the ROE said shoot.
I have no doubt the COs involved in this latest incident would have shot if the ROE called for it or if they felt their ships were in immediate danger. Since nothing happened, they obviously made the right call and the ROE obviously worked.
Your "kill them all and let others sort it out" attitude in the long run would hurt the US by just making more people/countries pissed off at us. That would in turn put more American lives in danger as the fanatics seek to take their revenge. ROE is designed to minimizes these type of consequences while protecting US forces.
ROE also has the added benefit of letting you sleep at night when you have to live with the unintended results of your actions.
So quit the arm chair quarterbacking and pontificating on subjects you do not have the knowledge or experience to really understand.
Thank God for level headed, professional COs.
Trust me, the Skipper is not a pussy.
Admiral Fallon et al seem to have been pretty clear that U.S. captains won't be disciplined for defending their ships. Not knowing anything more than what's in the media, it seems to me like the captains in question did the right thing - they were manned and ready, held their fire, followed ROE and the situation ended with no one dead, which is how you want things to end. Once the metal starts flying...well, then, different story.
Much as it might rankle sometimes, in confined waters at short distances, we don't win by throwing the first punch. There's a lot more bad guys than those few boats in front of you.
Much as it might rankle sometimes, in confined waters at short distances, we don't win by throwing the first punch. There's a lot more bad guys than those few boats in front of you.
Waste the motherfuckers!
Hey! I take Offense
I think that we can all take solace in the fact that a Navy Captain is authorized, and obligated, at all times to act to protect his ship. In this case, no such action took place. This means one of three things: that the ROE suspended this standing order, that the commanders of the Cruiser, Destroyer and Frigate all failed to act in accordance with standing orders or that the incident never rose to the level of threat. (The final scenario is the most likely)
As others have said before, this sort of thing happens all the time, so what's unusual about this incident? Apparently only the inflated coverage of the incident. Look at the time in which it occurs. Iran is having parliamentary elections and now that the specter of war between the US and Iran has passed thanks to the NIE report, ordinary Iranians have to focus on crippling inflation and the recently revived practice of amputations that Sharia Law imposes for certain crimes against God... An incident like this where the US is the "aggressor" would be the sort of "Wag the Dog" scenario that could defuse criticism.
Now as to why the US has spooled up the importance of the incident and then done damage control (A US State Department rep says that the US will not even file a formal complaint), things become a little clearer when we remember that today Jan 8th, the President will start his Middle Eastern tour focused on getting negotiations back on track with Iran (whom after the publication of the NIE took it as a sign that they had breathing room from attack but also that they could hold out for something better).
By publicizing this incident at this time, the United States cam show Iran that it can reverse its NIE posture and re-create a hostile atmosphere, replete with military threats, to force Iran to the negotiating table. To that extant I would say that the incident has succeeded, in that ordinary buisiness, which happens all the time, has got such a raise out of the public.
Don't you just love Geopolitics‽
phrogpilot73
Well-Known Member
Not going to answer ROE questions, and not going to speculate about why a CO made a decision. Not one shot was fired, and no one on either side was injured. Looks like a good decision to me.
However, you used the term Weapons Free incorrectly. There are three weapons control postures: Weapons Free, Weapons Tight, and Weapons Hold. They are issued AHEAD of time, and are tied in very closely with decisions that are made using ROE...
Weapons Free = Engage any target not positively identified as friendly.
Weapons Tight = Engage targets that are only positively identified as hostile.
Weapons Hold = Engage only in self defense.
My guess would be that the briefed posture would be Weapons Tight, or more realistically Weapons Hold. They would not change during the actual engagement, i.e. you don't go from Weapons Hold to Weapons Free because you opened fire. You are simply engaging a target in accordance with your pre-briefed weapons control posture.
Huh? How has their behavior changed any? (Other than giving the Revolutionary Guard maritime duties, which happened before the NIE was released, iirc).
VADM Cosgriff talks about the incident
Nothing like a bit of wiggle room. Still, as described, the incident didn't sound as scary as the first reports would indicate... "200 to 500 yards" ? Meh. Were it not for the radio transmission, I doubt this would be in the news at all.