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Phrogs Phorever

Autorotate

Autorotate

FAC, former Phrog pilot
No, the after actions do a great job of showing the V-22 to be an unmitigated success. All I'm saying is that for the duration of 263's deployment, they have not yet performed on par with the AC over which they are supposedly running roughshod.

It is inevitable that they are going to replace all 46's and 53d's. I don't like it for a number of reasons (I don't think I've really hidden that fact). I think it's a great aircraft for what it does best, which is ferry pax/mail/cargo over large distances in safe environments.
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Other than the maintainability and reliability numbers, which are improving daily, and are consistently within a close margin of the 46 what's your beef with it? Also keep in mind that an Osprey squadron has fewer aircraft than a 46, due to production constraints.

Lift capacity, speed, range, and agility are all better than the 46. Anyone who says the 46 is so manueverable needs to check out the E-M diagrams. There are other helicopters that can beat it in lift capacity, but in a service that emphasizes manuever warfare, the Osprey brings so much to the table.
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Keep the parts coming, and the Phrogs WILL keep turning. Truth.

Agreed.
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Nice editing. Unfortunately, one of your spare parts bins is up on a stick at the New River gate.
 
Autorotate

Autorotate

FAC, former Phrog pilot
Other than the maintainability and reliability numbers, which are improving daily, and are consistently within a close margin of the 46 what's your beef with it? Also keep in mind that an Osprey squadron has fewer aircraft than a 46, due to production constraints.
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The problem is that the MC numbers are NOT getting better. And there are actually the same number of 22's here as 46's, since they brought in 2 "spares" about a month and a half ago.

EM diagrams are great at speeds >50 knots. But they don't cover areas like sideways or backwards flight, for instance. I suppose if you got into it with a MiG, you're more likely to survive, though. And your flight suit stays cleaner since you don't have to crawl around on icky cowlings.

I hope you're a reservist. Otherwise I would try "hiding that fact" when you come to New River to transition in a few years.
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No, I'm not. At the rate they're transitioning pilots and making new ones, they'll be lucky to have an operational WC 22 squadron by 2012. Did you see the thread about them pulling 22 pipeline kids to make more helo pilots?

I'm actually working on new transmissions and a glass cockpit for the Phrog in my spare time. I'm going to sell it to the Corps and make them see the error of their ways...
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Autorotate said:
The problem is that the MC numbers are NOT getting better. And there are actually the same number of 22's here as 46's, since they brought in 2 "spares" about a month and a half ago.

EM diagrams are great at speeds >50 knots. But they don't cover areas like sideways or backwards flight, for instance. I suppose if you got into it with a MiG, you're more likely to survive, though. And your flight suit stays cleaner since you don't have to crawl around on icky cowlings.

No, I'm not. At the rate they're transitioning pilots and making new ones, they'll be lucky to have an operational WC 22 squadron by 2012. Did you see the thread about them pulling 22 pipeline kids to make more helo pilots?

I'm actually working on new transmissions and a glass cockpit for the Phrog in my spare time. I'm going to sell it to the Corps and make them see the error of their ways...
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What's with the attitude with the phrog? Whatever your attitude on the V-22, the 46 is an outdated bird. Tell me that we should buy a US-101 or something, but don't try to sell the idea the 46 competes with a 22.

...Yeah, that flying sideways and backwards below 50 knots--that'll be so much more useful in defeating the enemy than being able to rapidly displace by miles laterally or by thousands of feet vertically. "Yeah, I'll juke forward, slide right, then air-taxi backwards...that'll beat that SA-7!" I've done the combat deployment thing too--must've missed the "counter the threat via air taxiiing techniques" brief.
 
squeeze

squeeze

Retired Harrier Dude
pilot
Super Moderator
Contributor
timmy_CrippleFight_400.jpg
 
Autorotate

Autorotate

FAC, former Phrog pilot
but don't try to sell the idea the 46 competes with a 22.
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That's precisely it. They don't (shouldn't try to) perform the same mission. I've said before that it's a great aircraft for what it does best. The 22 isn't an ideal assault support aircraft any more than a 53, for similar reasons. For starters, it's got an enormous footprint (larger than a 53), it's slow to get onto the ground, and to lose one would mean losing two dozen troops at once. I have a watch, and I have timed them from a point over the ground to touchdown (I have A LOT of free time), and they are on average 20 seconds slower than a section of Phrogs. Maybe if there were a threat they'd be faster. But it's in that area of very low and very slow that my comments about the EM diagram come into play.

...Yeah, that flying sideways and backwards below 50 knots--that'll be so much more useful in defeating the enemy than being able to rapidly displace by miles laterally or by thousands of feet vertically.
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If you are DM qualified for the 22, I hope that they aren't teaching you to try and run from a fixed wing threat. And your airspeed isn't going to save you from a helo armed with AA missiles.

"Yeah, I'll juke forward, slide right, then air-taxi backwards...that'll beat that SA-7!"
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Certainly. It's called TERF, you might remember it from your helo years. Considering that you'd need to be on oxygen to be out of vertical range of any SA, I'd say 50 ft AGL is preferable to 12000+ ft.
 
phrogdriver

phrogdriver

More humble than you would understand
pilot
Super Moderator
Look, obviously you're pretty militant about the -46 for some reason. I'm not going to convince YOU.

Assault support is a whole package, from PZ to enroute to LZ. While anyone can pick some parameter the -46 can beat a -22 in, collectively the advantages of a V-22 over any currently available helo outweigh the parameters in which a helo beats a V-22.

Going 50AGL at the air taxi speeds you're suggesting is more NOE than TERF. Don't tell me that assault helos are actually going at 50/50 tactically. That's retarded. I would submit that 200' and well over 200 knots is far more survivable. Plus, the V-22 has so many other options, including a mid and high altitude profiles, depending on the threat. And I'd recheck the kinematics on those SAs all requiring going to O2 required altitudes. Besides, we've got O2, just not for all pax yet, but that can be fixed.

If you've been clocking V-22s to the deck, fine. How you spend your time is up to you. I'd submit that tripling the speed from IP inbound, plus some other threat reduction techniques that a helo can't do (but which I won't go into because they are TTPs), are just as valuable as that time on short final.

The V-22 is the same "footprint" as a H-46 sideways. That's just geometry. If minimizing the troops in one bird is an objective, then lets put everyone in Hueys in 6-man sticks. We don't want to be like the Russians, putting 100 guys in one bird, but lets be reasonable.
 
Autorotate

Autorotate

FAC, former Phrog pilot
Don't tell me that assault helos are actually going at 50/50 tactically. That's retarded.
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No, actually we would go at 50ft/120kts, tactically. That was before it was decided that the primary threat was small arms, though.

Plus, the V-22 has so many other options, including a mid and high altitude profiles, depending on the threat. And I'd recheck the kinematics on those SAs all requiring going to O2 required altitudes. Besides, we've got O2, just not for all pax yet, but that can be fixed.
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Considering that the SA-7, the lowliest of the first gens, can reach out and touch you at over 10k ft, altitude isn't the answer if you've got anyone in the back. And you STILL have to put them on the ground at some point.

Yes, I love the Phrog. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to see UH-1Y's carrying six dudes apiece on a raid.
 
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