Phrogs Phorever

[phrogdriver]

No, actually we would go at 50ft/120kts, tactically. That was before it was decided that the primary threat was small arms, though.

Considering that the SA-7, the lowliest of the first gens, can reach out and touch you at over 10k ft, altitude isn't the answer if you've got anyone in the back. And you STILL have to put them on the ground at some point.

Yes, I love the Phrog. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to see UH-1Y's carrying six dudes apiece on a raid.

At 50/120, your blue threat of hitting towers and such just went way higher than the threat of getting hit, and your E-M is still not great. Get shot at, what do you do? Go to 5 feet and 125 knots? Upwards manuever and jinking in a helo is negligible. If fast and low is your goal, a V-22 will win. And if I get shot at, I can displace a couple miles laterally, and massively in all 3 dimensions, putting huge distance between me and my expendables.

A lot more variables go into whether a MANPAD can hit you at a given altitude than just the altitude, lets just leave it at that. There are also ways of minimizing signature on the way down. Regardless, a V-22 has way more options against the various threats out there. High/fast, low/fast, and even low/slow, if you're really stupid. A helo can only go so low and so fast. I know 0' is the min alt, and maybe 125 KIAS or so fast.

If you are DM qualified for the 22, I hope that they aren't teaching you to try and run from a fixed wing threat. And your airspeed isn't going to save you from a helo armed with AA missiles.

Here's the rub. I can do any profile that suits the threat. If you're going to tell me that a helo has a really great shot in RW v. FW DM, you're high. A well-trained jet pilot with time on station will always be able to whack an assault aircraft. What saves you is that he doesn't have time and/or ordnance to spend on you, so you try to defeat him long enough that he gives up. More energy is better, and I can still pull tighter turns than him. Against a helo with A-A, I may not be as safe as a jet, but I'm a butt-ton better off than any helo.

I have flown both, and came to the V-22 by choice, and I know which one I'd go with.

 

[ChuckMK23]

Pedro retires at Cherry Point

And now that the Ospery is hitting full IOC - the last HH-46D was retired from Cherry Point and replaced with "new" HH-46E configured Phrogs!

 

[Autorotate]

Well, we're obviously on two very different wavelengths regarding threat mitigation. Or maybe since you've been with the V-22 for the past 4 years you've done some brain dumping regarding 46 tactics. You're not going to outrun/climb any jet, missile, or bullet. Period.
I'll stick with my assertion that the 22 is a very effective "mini c-130".

I have flown both, and came to the V-22 by choice, and I know which one I'd go with.

Well, you have managed to avoid the sandbox for four years - good work. Nice f-ing avatar, too.

 

[phrogdriver]

Dude, f-ing chill.

Based on your profile, I probably had 1000 hours in the CH-46E before you graduated college. Don't give me this "brain dumping" crap. Aircraft don't get better with age, even if they do get engine upgrades. I know you must be all ooh-rah about your very first airframe, but you need to get the bigger picture here and speak to what you know. I've got four years flying each of these aircraft. I'm just guessing here, but have you even ridden in a V-22? Flown the sim? Done anything but read hit pieces in the newpaper or the Marine Corps Enquirer (aka Marine Times)?

Honor the old, but look towards the future. The F-4U Corsair helped the Marine Corps win the war in the Pacific, and was one of the greatest aircraft of all time, but stacked against the first planes of the Jet Age, like the F-8, and its day had past. I'm sure some jackass was saying that the jets had stall speeds and turn radii way greater than the old props, but that guy was living in the old world.

Just like we weren't flying Corsairs in Desert Storm (first flight 1940--DS 1991=51 years), we shouldn't be flying CH-46s today (first flight 1958--today=50 years), no matter how many incremental improvements have been made. It's a testiment to the great design and foresight of the designers, but it's time to turn a new page. Argue with me that the Marine Corps should buy a EH-101, an S-92, a damn H-60, but don't tell me the battlephrog needs to stay any longer. I haven't deployed in a few years (ooh, you tried to sting me there) but I have flown the 46 in plenty of real world ops. I know the score on it.

See you at the River when you're at the FRS transitioning, unless you take your toys and go home like a 5-year-old, rather than face the facts, and the future.

 

[phrogpilot73]

Argue with me that the Marine Corps should buy a EH-101, an S-92, a damn H-60, but don't tell me the battlephrog needs to stay any longer.

Dude. You should be embarrased, you left one helo off the list:

Yes, I know - it was a technological demonstrator. Yes, I know that it's old. But a man can dream.

I agree with everything else you've said, and I was going to say some things similar - but since I'm a little rusty on the tactics (I doubt it's changed much), I figured I'd let you keep fighting the fight. I know that I'll be flying it eventually...

 

[phrogdriver]

And it's got a groovy paint scheme!

Look it up on Airliners.net, and they've got some pictures of it in a horrible condition in a boneyard.

 

[Autorotate]

I'm speaking only to what I know or can prove, which you'll see if you read what I've written. You, on the other hand, have written that 1) the 22 is doing great in Iraq (maintenance issues out the ass and far fewer sorties daily than "comparable" aircraft), 2) that they had fewer AC on hand than "comparable" aircraft (also false), 3) that assault AC were not flying at 50ft AGL (certainly we are), and that 4) I should "recheck the kinematics on those SAs" (take your own advice on that one).

One of my good friends from TBS and flight school is with 263. I have also ridden in the back on a pax movement. Everything else I have said about it is based on briefs that the CG MNF-W receives every day.

I have clearly stated my opinions, and I haven't made any statements that can't be backed up by facts. I only started in on this thread because of your post. Remember, you are the one with the "I'm with stupid" pic. This last question is rhetorical, as I'm fairly certain of the answer: Do you try to impress people by telling them your "Rep Power" on AirWarriors?

 

[phrogpilot73]

that assault AC were not flying at 50ft AGL (certainly we are)

They must have changed the rules since I was there. Enjoy those unlit towers at night.

I should "recheck the kinematics on those SAs" (take your own advice on that one).

I'm with phrogdriver on this one. Do you want my background? I'm a WTI, and currently work on avionics software for the 53K (most noticeably DECM). He's right - you need to recheck the kinematics.

 

[phrogdriver]

I'm speaking only to what I know or can prove, which you'll see if you read what I've written. You, on the other hand, have written that 1) the 22 is doing great in Iraq (maintenance issues out the ass and far fewer sorties daily than "comparable" aircraft), 2) that they had fewer AC on hand than "comparable" aircraft (also false), 3) that assault AC were not flying at 50ft AGL (certainly we are), and that 4) I should "recheck the kinematics on those SAs" (take your own advice on that one).

You're cherry-picking your facts, and my statements. Did a V-22 pilot bang your girlfriend or something? Because you seem to have a lot of built-up animus. 263 left with 10 aircraft-the fact that they increased the number later doesn't make me wrong. Whether they're doing well in Iraq is a matter of opinion. We differ.

We're obviously looking at different numbers for maintenance here. The V-22 fleet as a whole is improving in readiness. While still below the 46, it's pretty close and getting better. When the logistics are fully in place, it will be better. Don't believe me? Fine.

I didn't tell you they weren't flying at 50'. I said that it was stupid to do so. Especially at the 50 knots figure, under which you say the phrog is so manueverable. If you're going to travel at 50 knots, take a truck.

I know you're a freaking tactics ninja, but you don't have to outrun a missile in a tail chase to render it ineffective. I'm not going to draw the frickin' charts and vol.2 data on the internet for you.

I have clearly stated my opinions, and I haven't made any statements that can't be backed up by facts. I only started in on this thread because of your post. Remember, you are the one with the "I'm with stupid" pic. This last question is rhetorical, as I'm fairly certain of the answer: Do you try to impress people by telling them your "Rep Power" on AirWarriors?

My avatar? A MSgt who works for me, a 20-year phrog crewchief, sent it to me. It's supposed to be funny and make fun of pilots, but then, apparently you had your humorectomy done a couple years early. So bitter for one so young... HACed to bitch desk job, perhaps?

You think I'm obsessed with rep points...hmm...you're the one who's whining like a little bitch about getting negative rep from me. You have 24 posts on this site, and 12 of them (50%) are wanking over the V-22 in one way or another. You seem to have issues. Get over them. I have rep points because I've visited the site for awhile and don't spout negative BS all over the place--maybe you should think about that.

Marines far older and wiser than you have had the foresight to look into the future and invest in it. Come up with an alternative that doesn't involve your infatuation with the 46 or your unreasonable antipathy toward the V-22. Until then, STFU.

 

[Autorotate]

They must have changed the rules since I was there.

They didn't.

He's right - you need to recheck the kinematics.

It's supposed to be funny and make fun of pilots

Yes, and it just happens to be a Phrog? Come on now...

phrogdriver: I'm much more of a lurker than poster on message forums, and I usually won't post anything unless I can add something new or informational. You are obviously used to being one of the very few (if not the only) V-22 pilots on this forum; the only fish in a small pond, so to speak. I have access to a lot of information, and I read alot. So when your statements seemed to fly in the face of what I've read, I brought it up. I thought I was simply matching your "tone" when I brought up my objections. But perhaps my frustration with field grade here at work caused me to be less than cordial. You may feel that I've slighted you, your aircraft, and/or your professional ability, which was not my intention. I simply wanted to inform others - tell them in broad terms some of what I see on a daily basis. I would very much like to give you access to the same information. I'm certain that the sharing of information would be beneficial to someone in your position. You could see firsthand exactly what is reported to the CG every day. Hell, I'll send it to anyone with a SIPR account who's curious. I've also got some pretty sweet ordinance footage. Just PM me your .smil.mil address.

I'm not militant, nor am I 5 years old. But I am bitter, and a ninja. Mostly, though, I'm loyal to the Phrog, as it has saved my life once already. If you don't want to take me up on getting real time info on your aircraft, fine, but could you at least change your screen name to reflect your new loyalty?

 

[DanMa1156]

But I am bitter, and a ninja.

Not to butt in... but what in the world?

 

[phrogdriver]

That was a lot more cogent post. Turning the volume up each time on you, the dial was eventually going to 11.

I get cc'd on the 2nd MAW AMRRs periodically. I fully admit that the aircraft's main weakness is maintainability, but I see progress being made, especially on the KNCA 2MAW birds. I really think that it will start matching the legacy airframes within the next couple of years.

Like I've said, I really like the V-22. It is a freakin hot rod. If the Corps said that Sikorsky had a medium lift VTOL aircraft that goes 350 knots, I'd say can the V-22 tomorrow. I want the capability the V-22 brings to the table. You can't use it exactly the same way you did a -46, just like jet fighters couldn't be employed exactly the same way prop fighters were. That doesn't mean it's not a leap in capability.

Another analogy. I buy an electric screwdriver and can do work twice as fast as before, but a guy with a regular screwdriver keeps saying, "...but you need batteries, and you can't screw things in underwater...." When you get the electric screwdriver, you have to adapt the way you think of doing work, switch your paradigm, but the electric screwdriver is still 10x better.

I'm keeping my screen name. I started as a phrog pilot, it's the aircraft I went to combat in first, etc. I just don't anthropomorphize my aircraft. There's no such thing as being disloyal to an aircraft. It's a machine. It doesn't have feelings. Like the "100 reasons airplanes are better than women" list goes, "Airplanes don't get jealous when you fly another aircraft..." Being loyal to a machine is silly, because regardless of how much you love it, it can't return the favor. Respecting a good design and good construction is another thing.

The aircraft didn't save your life, you or your copilot did. Unless you used it as a bunker or something. That's the thing, the aircraft wasn't trying to save you, anymore than it was trying to kill you when its utility pump started glowing white (extra illumination feature for the 46 aft cabin, at no extra cost to the government).

A great aircraft is like a great piece of art. I save my respect for the artist, not the block of granite.

I'm not turning my back on the 46--I've decided that the time is here for the new thing, and today the new thing is the V-22. Just like jets had a rough time at first, so has the V-22. It is turning the corner, though, and will transform the way the USMC and USAF do business for the better.

 

[Col Angus]

You are obviously used to being one of the very few (if not the only) V-22 pilots on this forum.

There’s plenty of us here. Unlike yourself, we just choose not to skyline ourselves by making stupid arguments on behalf of outdated aircraft.

I haven't made any statements that can't be backed up by facts.

You’re confusing “facts” and “biased interpretation of data.” We see the same information you see. We interpret that information much differently than you. The decision makers (which you certainly are not) see the same information you see. They interpret that information much differently than you. The MV-22 is replacing the CH-46 as the Marine Corps’ premier assault support platform. That’s a fact.

You have a watch and the free time to observe Ospreys and Phrogs “from a point over the ground to touchdown.” That does not make you the most informed Marine in the world. It makes you a bored Marine. You have a biased view of the Ospreys based on your access to their daily tasking and Mission Capable Status compared to your own personal experience with an outdated yet mature airframe. That does not make you an expert on Marine aviation or the V-22. It makes you a bored Marine with an opinion. I suggest you walk up to any VMM- company grade can at Albert J. Asad International and ask their opinion of their aircraft- fleet accession or phrog transition alike. They’ll set you straight. Either that or go buy Guitar Hero at the exchange. It’s a better use of your free time.

 

[phrogdriver]

There’s plenty of us here. We just choose not to skyline ourselves by making stupid arguments on behalf of outdated aircraft.

You're saying I am?!? Huh?

 

[phrogdriver]

Not to butt in... but what in the world?

If only he were a funny ninja, instead of a bitter ninja.