Pilot shortage?

[MGoBrew11]

And Training Officers, and CAG Paddles, and CAG Staffs, etc.

I get where people are coming from, but this sentiment is in tension with the interests of the organization, which needs bodies to fill billets. The Navy is not going to design a system of human capital that advantages the workforce to the extent that some of you are suggesting.

Yeah, I get it. I'm admittedly looking at it from a purely "don't want to go to a boat" perspective.

That being said, I think most people have more or less made up their mind whether they want to stay in or get out by the time they're wrapping up their first shore tour. A lot of folks being sent to boat jobs and then dropping their letters right away are not going to be the most motivated. Nor should they be, since their main focus should be on setting themselves up for success post-Navy.

I get the Navy's perspective but there is definitely some needless pain.

 

[Brett327]

Yeah, I get it. I'm admittedly looking at it from a purely "don't want to go to a boat" perspective.

That being said, I think most people have more or less made up their mind whether they want to stay in or get out by the time they're wrapping up their first shore tour. A lot of folks being sent to boat jobs and then dropping their letters right away are not going to be the most motivated. Nor should they be, since their main focus should be on setting themselves up for success post-Navy.

I get the Navy's perspective but there is definitely some needless pain.

Some of that is community dependent as well. Lots of 2nd sea tour options for Tacair folks where you're still flying and more or less doing what you're trained to do. Not so much for the VP/Shooter folks.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Has the Navy ever talked about using civil service pilots/NFO's with a lot of prior active duty experience? I was told by an AF O-6 this week that there seems to be interest at other AF Wings on this subject.


Interesting idea. It might provide incentive for the Navy to reduce the inefficiencies in the timeline of pilot training, since that would lengthen the amount of time they have a Winged Aviator in the fleet (though I'm doubtful that 12 years is the right specific answer).


Do a significant number of Aviators get passed over from O-3 to O-4? Very very rare in the USAF.

The Army uses civilians in the Training Command - wonder how long it will be before the Navy revisits that idea? I would imagine you could tempt quite a few pilots away from the show for a comfortable job flying acrobatic airplanes and being home every night.

 

[Sam I am]

As a guy who spent 8 consecutive years in an HT squadron I can say with a high degree of certainty it was too long. However, if you take out the AOM's, GMT's, PFT's, Weekends, Nights, and collateral duties...it might be a pretty sweet gig.

 

[ChuckMK23]

I've had my eyes opened to the number of civil service pilot jobs in the AF and Army - I had no idea before I took the job I am in now. But opportunities seem to be growing. I heard the AF will staff a number of FTU's (Navy FRS) with GS types. The perfect post retirement job for those not wanting to go to The Show.

 

[HuggyU2]

I would imagine you could tempt quite a few pilots away from the show for a comfortable job flying acrobatic airplanes and being home every night.

For the right person, working in a part-time civil service billet, they could continue to work for their airline (unless they work for FedEx). Like with everything involved in a niche-job, a civil service instructor pilot job really requires a strong interview process, and a known-quantity applying.

The USAF currently has a GS-13 flying the T-38 in one of their Introduction to Fighter Fundamental (IFF) squadrons. He's a former Eagle driver. For those not familiar with IFF: after winging, if a pilot is going to an F-15/16/22/35 or A-10, they do a ~8 week course learning fighter basics. Since it is in the T-38, they already know the airplane... they must learn to "employ" it differently than they did in UPT. If they complete the course, they then go to the FTU.

 

[Brett327]

The Navy used to have civilian pilots flying the T-39 for NFO training.

 

[wink]

The Navy used to have civilian pilots flying the T-39 for NFO training.

They were contract though, not GS types.

 

[Brett327]

They were contract though, not GS types.

Does that matter?

 

[SynixMan]

Some of that is community dependent as well. Lots of 2nd sea tour options for Tacair folks where you're still flying and more or less doing what you're trained to do. Not so much for the VP/Shooter folks.

The better point is that changing the winging commitment to 8 was a way to leverage a third tour out of Helo/VP folks outside of Title 10. It was a power move because they could, but for a lot of people, myself included, it was the cherry on top of my reasons to walk.

 

[whitesoxnation]

Yeah, I get it. I'm admittedly looking at it from a purely "don't want to go to a boat" perspective.

That being said, I think most people have more or less made up their mind whether they want to stay in or get out by the time they're wrapping up their first shore tour. A lot of folks being sent to boat jobs and then dropping their letters right away are not going to be the most motivated. Nor should they be, since their main focus should be on setting themselves up for success post-Navy.

I get the Navy's perspective but there is definitely some needless pain.

FWIW, some other perspective, I didn’t have my mind made up until I got orders and had my mind made up for me. I didn’t take the bonus, and am staying past MSR. Taking the bonus would have made me fodder to get sent to an undesirable billet or location. Depending on the length, it also would have prevented me from again having the option to get out at the end of my next set of orders.

COVID had a large part to do with it. Ultimately I decided you can’t put a price on keeping your options open. Or at least, the price of the bonus was not enough to convince me to close the door on those options in the future and give up any bargaining chips the next time I’m up for orders. If the bonus were closer to what some people here are suggesting and I were guaranteed flying orders, I might have taken it.

Seems like people largely get out for life style reasons. In order to fix the issue with money, the amount of money needs to sufficiently mitigate those lifestyle issues. 35k a year doesn’t sufficiently do that, imo.

 

[Brett327]

The better point is that changing the winging commitment to 8 was a way to leverage a third tour out of Helo/VP folks outside of Title 10. It was a power move because they could, but for a lot of people, myself included, it was the cherry on top of my reasons to walk.

I'm not aware of anyone's MSR changing once they entered the Navy. Unless I'm missing something, people's commitments were exactly what they signed up for, no? When you say "outside of Title 10," please elaborate.

 

[Pags]

Does that matter?

Depends...if you're the guy in the gig you might want one over the other. Also, GS can probably do more officer like things in the squadron as govt agents (if that's something you want them to do).

 

[ChuckMK23]

Depends...if you're the guy in the gig you might want one over the other. Also, GS can probably do more officer like things in the squadron as govt agents (if that's something you want them to do).

and also the job protections and retirement continuity offered by Civil Service vs. "at will employee" for a contractor.

 

[Gatordev]

I'm not aware of anyone's MSR changing once they entered the Navy. Unless I'm missing something, people's commitments were exactly what they signed up for, no? When you say "outside of Title 10," please elaborate.

I can't speak to whether it's in Title 10 or elsewhere, but when "signing up," you owe the Navy 8 years. For non-USNA, that was 4 years active, 4 years IRR. For USNA, that was 5 years. When winged, you used to incur a 7 year concurrent obligation. That changed to 8 for reasons synixman mentioned. That's what he's referring to.