Pilot shortage?

[HAL Pilot]

None of that will work. Extra time would mean fewer people signing up. Not enough cash to come close to airline compensation, plus it’s already been shown the bonuses just go those that were going to stay anyway.

I also love a nonaviator telling aviators how to fix aviator problems.

 

[Mos]

Most problems are leadership problems, and some problems can be solved by changing the incentives/ throwing money at them.

Something the Navy (with Congress) could consider doing from an HR perspective:

1. Change the MSO for aviators to be 12 years from date of commissioning, rather than 8-10 years from winging.
2. Then, also change it so that 2xFOS for O4 no longer means you’re out, it just means you have to finish the rest of your 12-year active duty MSO at O3, i.e. spend 8 years as an O3. This probably gives the Navy one extra PCS tour at O3. The average # flight hours of O3s would increase statistically because you’ll have some 6- and 7-year O3s in the fleet.
3. Consider changing the rules so aviators start getting a 3rd look for O4, if aviation is undermanned at O4.
4. Build-in a new, optional $100k untaxed cash bonus at the 12 year mark - when the MSO ends - for aviator O4s in exchange for 4 more years of MSO (paid $25k annually). That cash will entice more people to stay to 16, at which point it’s on them to choose to leave so very close to 20, to make O5, or opt to ride it out at O4 if they fail to make O5.
5. Make the rule so that the new 12 year MSO from date of commissioning for aviators doesn’t go away for someone who is a flight school attrite at any point after NIFE - they will be asked to redesignate but still honor that MSO, which will slightly improve manning/retention in other designators, thereby easing Navy recruiting needs slightly, and allowing recruiters to focus slightly more time/attention on aviation.

 

[HSMPBR]

$100K/year DH bonus and $100-200K/year ACRB would be a place to start if the Bobs still think it’s about money. I could link 6 USNI articles from fleet aviators since 2015 that spell out just what might keep more of us around, but instead we’re taking retention surveys again.

 

[Jim123]

the Bobs

+1

 

[DanMa1156]

$100K/year DH bonus and $100-200K/year ACRB would be a place to start if the Bobs still think it’s about money. I could link 6 USNI articles from fleet aviators since 2015 that spell out just what might keep more of us around, but instead we’re taking retention surveys again.

And said surveys largely appear to have been sent to every aviator on duty in the past 20 years even though they were apparently only supposed to be sent to guys within their first MSO... Ha!

 

[Jim123]

And said surveys largely appear to have been sent to every aviator on duty in the past 20 years even though they were apparently only supposed to be sent to guys within their first MSO... Ha!

Those aviation retention surveys are actually a secret plot by a secret cabal composed of the survey monkey website, crackerjack box shore duty masters programs, and the various education subsidy and financial aid programs. You know what they say about the part of the iceberg you can see is only the little part...

 

[Griz882]

Those aviation retention surveys are actually a secret plot by a secret cabal composed of the survey monkey website, crackerjack box shore duty masters programs, and the various education subsidy and financial aid programs. You know what they say about the part of the iceberg you can see is only the little part...

 

[Mirage]

For the life of me I don't get the shortsightedness of the "up or out" philosophy paired with the lack of career flexibility. A lot of people become pilots in the Navy because they want to fly, and have no desire to be a DH, let alone an admiral one day. Yet we constantly force folks out of the cockpit, and we refuse to create pathways that allow pilots to reach 20 years of just non-golden path flying billets. In turn, we push fully qualified and very experienced pilots, who have no desire to fly for the airlines but also no desire to be a staff officer, and replace them with nuggets. Instead, these folks could be rotating between instructor/station SAR/GITMO/etc and operational flying billets as Super JO's / FITREP fodder DH's who wear O4. Creating a real PIP that isn't just for show would also help.

I also disagree that all bonuses just go to folks who were going to stay anyway. I am at that juncture myself right now, and my decision to stay or not will absolutely be influenced by the size of the bonus. And my decision to take the 5 year bonus or wait until after the DH results to take the 3 year bonus will also be affected by the size.

 

[squorch2]

For the life of me I don't get the shortsightedness of the "up or out" philosophy paired with the lack of career flexibility.

Part of it is DOPMA, part of it is big navy culture, part of it is Internet-age low friction/high diffusion comms...

not a lot of solutions besides changing DOPMA (which PERS doesn’t seem to advocate for), and things aren’t getting better with 11 month cruises with no port calls.

 

[sevenhelmet]

Forever wars in the Middle East grinding away at readiness and prematurely aging equipment (to say nothing of burning people out) are certainly not helping.

But I’m sure we’re moving the needle on “deterrence”.

 

[MGoBrew11]

Most problems are leadership problems, and some problems can be solved by changing the incentives/ throwing money at them.

Something the Navy (with Congress) could consider doing from an HR perspective:

1. Change the MSO for aviators to be 12 years from date of commissioning, rather than 8-10 years from winging.

If anything it should go back to the old system. Wings + 6 instead of the current Wings + 8.

I know, I know, we need the bodies for shooters....

 

[Brett327]

If anything it should go back to the old system. Wings + 6 instead of the current Wings + 8.

I know, I know, we need the bodies for shooters....

And Training Officers, and CAG Paddles, and CAG Staffs, etc.

I get where people are coming from, but this sentiment is in tension with the interests of the organization, which needs bodies to fill billets. The Navy is not going to design a system of human capital that advantages the workforce to the extent that some of you are suggesting.

 

[FrankTheTank]

For the life of me I don't get the shortsightedness of the "up or out" philosophy paired with the lack of career flexibility. A lot of people become pilots in the Navy because they want to fly, and have no desire to be a DH, let alone an admiral one day. Yet we constantly force folks out of the cockpit, and we refuse to create pathways that allow pilots to reach 20 years of just non-golden path flying billets. In turn, we push fully qualified and very experienced pilots, who have no desire to fly for the airlines but also no desire to be a staff officer, and replace them with nuggets. Instead, these folks could be rotating between instructor/station SAR/GITMO/etc and operational flying billets as Super JO's / FITREP fodder DH's who wear O4. Creating a real PIP that isn't just for show would also help.

I also disagree that all bonuses just go to folks who were going to stay anyway. I am at that juncture myself right now, and my decision to stay or not will absolutely be influenced by the size of the bonus. And my decision to take the 5 year bonus or wait until after the DH results to take the 3 year bonus will also be affected by the size.

The bonus is chump change compared to the cash in the show. If I could count how many guys I have flown with that said they had no desire to fly in the show. Each and EVERY one of them are “my buds were right, wtf, was I thinking. 1,2,5,10 years of seniority lost...”

 

[HuggyU2]

I cannot believe the amount of time and money that gets poured into making a patch only to have them go do something else shortly after they graduate from school. Dudes are peaking and becoming IPs, division leads, and patch wearers towards the end of that 36 months. Maybe a 12 month extension. Then they go do something else.

Dudes getting out with 1,000s of hours of experience. All that ability and experience gone, only to be replaced by a dude with 100 grey jet hours. It's not just the quals; its the experience of deployments and advanced training like Red Flags.

The lack of ROI is mind blowing.

Has the Navy ever talked about using civil service pilots/NFO's with a lot of prior active duty experience? I was told by an AF O-6 this week that there seems to be interest at other AF Wings on this subject.

Change the MSO for aviators to be 12 years from date of commissioning, rather than 8-10 years from winging.

Interesting idea. It might provide incentive for the Navy to reduce the inefficiencies in the timeline of pilot training, since that would lengthen the amount of time they have a Winged Aviator in the fleet (though I'm doubtful that 12 years is the right specific answer).

Consider changing the rules so aviators start getting a 3rd look for O4, if aviation is undermanned at O4.

Do a significant number of Aviators get passed over from O-3 to O-4? Very very rare in the USAF.

Build-in a new, optional $100k untaxed cash bonus at the 12 year mark - when the MSO ends - for aviator O4s in exchange for 4 more years of MSO (paid $25k annually). That cash will entice more people to stay to 16, at which point it’s on them to choose to leave so very close to 20, to make O5, or opt to ride it out at O4 if they fail to make O5.

It will take at least $75,000 tax-free per year to make a difference in retaining quality Aviators. I know airline captains that have made $12,000+ on a four-day trip. In the AF, $35,000 (before taxes) really hasn't done much for retention.

Make the rule so that the new 12 year MSO from date of commissioning for aviators doesn’t go away for someone who is a flight school attrite at any point after NIFE - they will be asked to redesignate but still honor that MSO, which will slightly improve manning/retention in other designators, thereby easing Navy recruiting needs slightly, and allowing recruiters to focus slightly more time/attention on aviation.

Hahahaha!!!! I have no clue what NIFE is... but if you think it's a good idea to put a 12 year commitment on an attrite, you need to head to the Betty Ford Clinic for your issues.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Has the Navy ever talked about using civil service pilots/NFO's with a lot of prior active duty experience? I was told by an AF O-6 this week that there seems to be interest at other AF Wings on this subject.

The Navy lacks innovation unless its social justice pet projects!