Power, wave off, abort, $#%$, Eject!

[insanebikerboy]

I asked one of my IP's today about why they call it a "free pass" and about down the road (and this is coming from a P3 guy). The way he put it was that it just shows good headwork and SA as we're learning the pattern and how to fly. It keeps a stud from playing paddycake with the runway. He said it's not the same later on down the road, he didn't elaborate but I'm assuming it's the same reasons as you guys are saying here.

 

[Intruder Driver]

I don't know enough to argue this point, but how can flying characteristics be affected by wind (aside from the effects of island, burble, etc.)? In other words on-speed is the same regardless of the wind over the deck (for a given aircraft weight). Flying characteristics wise, the aircraft gets pretty squirrely at anything below 44K. Therefore, we have a hold down of 4.0 (which the ship never seems to know about, nor which I can find in writing anywhere). Aside from the fact that the power changes at a lighter weight are much more amplified (think differences in relative thrust from each side, p-factor, center of gravity changes as we get lighter), the aircraft seems to "float" over the ramp with the no-sh!t ground effect. Power levers to idle before and on touchdown are not uncommon... just don't mention it to paddles much as the non-Hawkeye/Greyhound guys get freaked out when they hear that.

Then why don't we land downwind at an airport?

I don't remember the exact reasoning, but speed at touchdown (ground speed) affects the arresting gear in a big way, so I'd guess that's a significant reason.

 

[Intruder Driver]

Ground Speed at touchdown for each particular airplane (weight driven). Otherwise, you drive the A-Gear to the stops and the result isn't pretty. We lost a wire for several days on Midway because a Whale landed over max gross (inaccurate representation on the ball too) and ran our two wire to the blocks and beyond. Pretty crappy deal since we only had three cables on Midway and the #2 was our target wire.

 

[kmac]

Ground Speed at touchdown for each particular airplane (weight driven). Otherwise, you drive the A-Gear to the stops and the result isn't pretty. We lost a wire for several days on Midway because a Whale landed over max gross (inaccurate representation on the ball too) and ran our two wire to the blocks and beyond. Pretty crappy deal since we only had three cables on Midway and the #2 was our target wire.

Yes that's all agreed upon, but the previous statement was talking about flying characteristics. That's what originated my question.

 

[Sarge]

Yes that's all agreed upon, but the previous statement was talking about flying characteristics. That's what originated my question.

Here is the blurb from the ARBs:

"APPROACH FLYING QUALITIES REQUIRE A MINIMUM OF 25 KNOTS RHW.
RHW SHALL BE 25 KNOTS OR THE RHW AS LISTED ABOVE (PLUS ANY APPLICABLE TEMPERATURE CORRECTION), WHICHEVER IS GREATER."

From the RHW tables, the structural wind requirements are from 0-12 knots depending on gross weight. Here is a link to the applicable ARB:

http://www.lsoschool.org/images/stories/files/pubs/arbs/ARB-33-13D.pdf

 

[Gatordev]

Alright, I'm not all about the 'kindler, gentler, trophy for everyone Navy", I don't like Dr. Phil and I'm not a fan of Hillary. Frankly, I'm an a-hole, but this is a little over the top. A new fleet pilot comes on here and posts a couple mistakes he made on his nugget vruise and he gets hammered. I realize that this is supposed to be a ready-room like atmosphere, but for someone just showing up here, this is sure as hell going to discourage them from contributing, or at least make them think twice in the future. So he f-ed up. He's admitting it so that someone else might not make the same mistake. Is that worth him getting crushed? I think its good that that stuff comes out on here. Is there anyone here that can say they've never f-ed it away? (I'm sure I'll be told YES.) I've learned quite a bit from this site and would like to contiue to do so. I'm just thinking that the new blood is being put down a little quick here. If I'm way out of bounds, let me know, I can easily shave this off my already large to-do list each day. Just seeing quite a bit of this lately.

I think you're right on, and it's a trend I've been noticing lately, as well. Personally, I think they must all be LAMPS guys at heart...

This is one of the big things that's great about coming back to the training command, for me. Guys will come in and call themselves out w/ other JOs and sometimes w/ the front office there. Why? So that others don't make the same mistake, and it's a huge benefit to the newer guys. It's also a very nice change from the dagger throwing party that sometimes exist in the fleet.

 

[A4sForever]

Alright, I'm not all about the 'kindler, gentler, trophy for everyone Navy".....Is there anyone here that can say they've never f-ed it away? (I'm sure I'll be told YES.) ....

EVERYONE has their time in the barrel ... you, me, everyone.

If the guys (or you) feel "slammed" ... well, that's the breaks of Naval Air. It's nothing personal, you've just got to get your mind right about Boat flying, ASAP. Accepting a high ball and thinking "that's right where I want it" is a trend; a dangerous progression that will lead to bad grades at the very least and a tragedy at the most. I've seen it -- many times --- and I've seen a couple of guys die because they weren't as "serious" about Boat flying as they should have been and no one did anything about it when there was an opportunity. Much handwringing and blame-gaming on the post mortems, however.

It's all how you approach it (no pun) and whether or not you take a no B.S. view of flying at the ship.

Most pilots I know/knew would parrot your views .... and that's why we have LSO's.

No LSO's that I ever served with would, however. And that includes me.

 

[HAL Pilot]

Viking WOD requirements are -4 knots (yes a tailwind).

When I was an OOD on TR we trapped a few S-3s with 0 wind over the deck. We also decked launched a couple.

Once anchored in Halifax we trapped and launched a S-3 from anchor for a 4 star visit.

 

[A4sForever]

I just think that first paragraph would have been a bit more constructive that "You're grounded". .....

It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek ... a shoot from the hip/lip comment ... making a point by going from the ridiculous to the sublime ....

Kinda like .... "I weep".

Lighten up, guys. You are getting wound way too tight around the main mount.

*sigh* .... the Internet.

*sigh* .... Pilots.

I weep

 

[kmac]

Not that it matters, but I've seen more ball-high all the ways result in (HAW) than the creasters which end up being LAR on the grade sheet. So for us to see a high ball is a good sign... mind you not top of the lens and refusing to work it down. My point is that the so-called cut and dry ways of flying at the boat aren't so cut and dry. Maybe that's just a CODism, or perhaps just a current trend with CODs, or perhaps just a current trend with CODs on the West Coast, etc. etc. etc.

 

[Sarge]

When I was an OOD on TR we trapped a few S-3s with 0 wind over the deck. We also decked launched a couple.

Once anchored in Halifax we trapped and launched a S-3 from anchor for a 4 star visit.

I have 7 traps on Kitty Hawk while anchored in Elliott (sp) Bay during Seattle Sea Fair 1995. I have the PLAT tape with the buildings of downtown Seattle in the background while in the groove. I still remember CAG Paddles call "Roger Ball, wind calm". We ran the deck with 2 Vikings (VS-38) and a Prowler (VAQ-131) for about 45 minutes with over 1000 spectators seated in bleachers set up on Els 1 and 2. Constant shuffle with 1 in the approach turn/groove, 1 in tension/launching on Cat 2 and 1 on downwind. Worked out pretty good with lots of pattern coordination on the radio. I think we only has 2 or 3 foul deck waveoffs during the whole evolution. Quite the BAGEX as I got 55 traps in 3 days of flying!

 

[Intruder Driver]

I have 7 traps on Kitty Hawk while anchored in Elliott (sp) Bay during Seattle Sea Fair 1995. I have the PLAT tape with the buildings of downtown Seattle in the background while in the groove. I still remember CAG Paddles call "Roger Ball, wind calm". We ran the deck with 2 Vikings (VS-38) and a Prowler (VAQ-131) for about 45 minutes with over 1000 spectators seated in bleachers set up on Els 1 and 2. Constant shuffle with 1 in the approach turn/groove, 1 in tension/launching on Cat 2 and 1 on downwind. Worked out pretty good with lots of pattern coordination on the radio. I think we only has 2 or 3 foul deck waveoffs during the whole evolution. Quite the BAGEX as I got 55 traps in 3 days of flying!

That settles it. You buy all the beers for a BAGEX like that.

 

[squorch2]

You guys don't get it these days, I guess .... once you "call the ball" AND GET A "Roger Ball" ... the pass is NOT YOURS .... it's controlled by the LSO. He bears the "responsibility" if you F-it-up and that's the whole truth ....

Here's where things start to differ on the helo side of the house... our LSEs are more or less ignored or given VERY short shrift, with the obvious exceptions of "hold" and "waveoff," which results in the onus being on the aircrew for the safe landing. I know in HSC-land the crewmen in the back carry a LOT of weight when going to the boat or an LZ.

 

[Pags]

Here's where things start to differ on the helo side of the house... our LSEs are more or less ignored or given VERY short shrift, with the obvious exceptions of "hold" and "waveoff," which results in the onus being on the aircrew for the safe landing. I know in HSC-land the crewmen in the back carry a LOT of weight when going to the boat or an LZ.

the key is to use all of the assets you have. if you're crewman is saying "come down" and the LSE is signalling to come left, it never hurts to stop and say "hey, he's calling me left." the LSE may just be a boat donkey, but he might see something that your crew is missing.

 

[bunk22]

Another Det-5 Wunderkid Bunky?

The former boss and skipper?......hat's a roger. That's all I'm going to say about that.