POWs unacknowledged in China, Libya and Laos?

[Steve Davies]

You seem to have you mind pretty much made up on the subject, and your habit of making shit up or posting speculation without factual basis and calling it "my theory" has gotten pretty annoying.

You are aware that I am in the Navy, and this is an Air Force case, right?

Bevo

I have spoken to so many people intimately familiar with this - from intel to pilots responsible for the SAR CAP - that I think there is a good chance that Ribas made it out of the ejection alive and then spent time in the sea. I haven't made up my mind because there is not much to go by, and that's why I was initially interested in what you had to say as someone who appeared to be able to offer an insider's perspective.

For the record, I didn't ask you to volunteer information on the subject - you did so of your own volition. So, forgive me if I think it odd that you put yourself out there and started answering questions about this specific case, but now you're distancing yourself from it with the 'it's not my investigation, and not even the same service' card.

Perhaps you can provide some direct quotes of 'shit I have made up'? I can't see anything that I have written that I have plucked out of thin air and presented as fact.

It depends on a lot of variables, really. A body will only float initially if it has gear attached to it that is buoyant. Then, water temperature and depth play a big part. If the temp is to low, the bacteria in and on the body will die and the body will stay on the bottom. If it is warm enough, the bacteria grow and create gases in the body causing it to float.

One minute you say bodies don't float, but now you say that they can if the conditions are right?

As I said, Ribas floated pretty well.

I really don't have comment on your speculation rather than to point out that it makes my earlier point about people being so passionate about this issue that the emotion often trumps reason. The only evidence that you have talked about is the fact that there is one body with minor injuries (other than being dead). With that, you have formulated in your mind the exact chain of events that happened after they got to the water. Then, your own "theory" (it's fun calling them that) is that the pilot tried to free his WSO from the capsule, failed, and drown in the process. Then the dead WSO somehow managed to do what the pilot couldn't, and freed himself from the sinking capsule so that he could float to the surface.

I don't have a problem with calling a spade a spade - it is just a theory. I also don't know why you find it so offensive to call it one. I had thought that in your line of work, theories about what/who/how/where were a staple part of helping you to decide how to go about finding and recovering people. My bad if that is not the case.

What we do know for a fact is that Ribas got out of the capsule alive. So, no, the WSO didn't do something that the pilot couldn't. I think you need to re-read what I wrote, as you have things backwards.

FWIW, this theory is the one espoused by the F-111 crews that I have spoken to who were on the raid - it is therefore not mine, is derived from people with a practical working knowledge of the F-111 that far exceeds any theoretical knowledge I might have, and is therefore one I subscribe to it as being credible and the best we have.

In any case, I don't need to apologise to you for having spent time wondering what happened to Ribas, or for speaking to his F-111 buddies who have also tried to piece together what happened. Nor do I have to apologise to you for still wanting answers, for trying to get them on the behalf of others, or for holding America to account to do all that it can to get back its fallen warrriors.

So, what happened to the Vatican when they found out the "Devout Catholic" was still not found? If all it took was a little divine intervention from the pope to get one of the guys, why didn't he snap his fingers again and have them give us the other body back? That would be the one that the Vatican had an interest in.

The devout Catholic *was* found. Was I not clear?

There was no divine intervention, but your sarcasm and tone is duly noted.

I don't think that you know what "you guys" you are talking about here. None of the recovery efforts that you seem to have such an issue with would even fall under the folks that work POW/MIA issues. It would all be current operations folks. It would have taken years for the F-111 case to move from one department to the other

I concede that is true. As I said, these comments are not aimed at you personally, and I apologise if it comes off that way.

 

[Flash]

As a relative outsider to all of this, I would just like to say that those of you involved in personnel recovery for a living, when confronted by someone who has a personal interest in the matter, should be taking a much more professional stance.

Remember, he is "the customer", this is a very emotional issue, and the internet is forever.

(I'm not questioning your motivation, as I can imagine myself in your billet, and I can't think of a job that I would want to succeed at more.)

I think Bevo has been about as professional as can be, and has shown a lot of patience (a lot more than me at least). But not every random person of the street who spouts second-hand theories and pure speculation should be treated as an interested party.

 

[Steve Davies]

But not every random person of the street who spouts second-hand theories and pure speculation should be treated as an interested party.

I am hardly a random person on the street. The pilot was a close family friend, and I have been contacted by representatives of the Lorence family to try and get to the bottom of all this. That's all I am doing.

The facts about Karma 52 that I have cited here come from unclassified or declassified official documents, the family of Ribas, or interviews with eyewitnesses (both on and off record).

The speculation (which is the only thing that the Lorence's have to go by since America seems to have done such a lackadaisical job on Karma 52) is the speculation that has been espoused by pilots and WSOs on the raid. If you think that's not worth reading about, then I respect your opinion but it doesn't change my perspective.

For clarification, here is part of what Paul's step-brother had to say on the matter in 2006:

My name is Jeff Kruger, brother to fallen US Air Force Captain Paul F. Lorence, who's F-111F bomber was reportedly shot down during the raid on Libya on April 14, 1986 . To this date, Paul's remains are still in the custody of the Libyan government. Our family would very much like his remains returned home where they belong. After almost 20 years, it's long overdue. Paul was a San Francisco / Bay Area native who graduated from Skyline High School in Oakland and majored in history at San Francisco State University . Paul was 31 years old when his jet was downed. Paul left behind a wife and 8 month old son who live in England to this day.

The F-111F contains 2 flight crew, the pilot and the Weapons System Operator (WSO). Inside this aircraft the pilot and the WSO sit side by side in the cockpit. The cockpit they sit in is structurally reinforced to withstand high impacts. This particular mission was designated " Operation El Dorado Canyon ". Paul Lorence was the WSO and Captain Fernando Ribas-Dominicci was the pilot. Their airplane's callsign was designated as "Karma-52". In the early morning hours of April 15, 1986 , Karma-52 was reportedly shot down over the Mediterranean Sea while flying inbound, only a few miles off the coast of Tripoli . Karma-52 went down fully armed.

Days after the raid, Libya claimed publicly to possess bodies affiliated with the fallen aircraft. Paul's mother and I personally remember watching TV footage during this time of someone in Libya holding up what I remember to be a white helmet with the name "Lorence" stenciled on the back... Qaddafi reluctantly released one of the bodies, that of Fernando Ribas-Dominicci, to the Vatican in Rome . An autopsy conducted in Spain confirmed the cause of death was drowning. There were no internal injuries or broken bones to his body. Weeks later, in an interview with Barbara Walters, Qaddafi denied knowing the whereabouts of Paul Lorence.

In 1995 a book was authored by an individual who claims to have seen not only the wreckage of Karma-52 but the engraved names of Lorence and Ribas-Dominicci on the flight suits and helmets of BOTH Paul Lorence and Fernando Ribas-Dominicci... Chapter 18 details what Mr. Chasey saw first hand as he and the members of his party toured the Bab Azizzia Barracks in downtown Tripoli and ultimately meet with Qaddafi himself...

In summary, our family strongly believes Libya still has possession of the remains of a US military officer who some may consider to be the first U.S. serviceman to die in the defense against terrorism. The United States is still at war against terror today... Fernando was returned home in 1989. It's long overdue for Paul's return home.

I have been designated by my family as the spokesman for this matter... The only motive our family has is to bring Paul's remains back to the United States for burial at the Arlington National Cemetery .

Thank you for your attention in this very important matter.

Jeff Kruger

 

[Scoob]

I think Bevo has been about as professional as can be, and has shown a lot of patience (a lot more than me at least). But not every random person of the street who spouts second-hand theories and pure speculation should be treated as an interested party.

How often would you guys guess that the family members of the MIAs do a google search to see what new information they can find?

I would guess it would be damn near every day, and that reading what is posted in this thread would be painful for them.

Show some professionalism.

 

[Steve Davies]

How often would you guys guess that the family members of the MIAs do a google search to see what new information they can find?

I would guess it would be damn near every day, and that reading what is posted in this thread would be painful for them.

Show some professionalism.

Scoob

Thanks for putting these people's families first. I know that they would appreciate it.

I'll make this my last post on the matter and call it a day on this thread.

 

[Flash]

Show some professionalism.

What have I said that was unprofessional so far? If you are concerned about the families finding this thread then ask the mods to remove his name from this thread, or remove it all together. I have tried to be respectful in addressing the individual case mentioned here.

I would consider wild speculation and unfounded theories put forth by amateurs to be nothing but detrimental and hurtful to families of MIA's, which is partly what I was trying to address. I guess I should be sorry for trying to defend the work of professionals who deal with this issue.

Have any more issues, PM me.

 

[phrogpilot73]

How often would you guys guess that the family members of the MIAs do a google search to see what new information they can find?

I would guess it would be damn near every day, and that reading what is posted in this thread would be painful for them.

Show some professionalism.

And that's why this thread is done.

 

[Steve Davies]

'U.S. POWs Still in Laos'?

I thought that the following article might be of interest given recent discussions about the POW/MIA issue.

This article is clearly politically weighted, so make of it what you will:

Source: http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/pows_still_in_laos_142.html

By Christopher J. Petherick

​

There is new evidence that American GIs are being held against their will in Southeast Asia more than three decades after the Vietnam War officially ended. A letter recently received by the father of a U.S. pilot, who went missing in action in 1971, could provide a key piece of information that proves American prisoners of war are alive and imprisoned in remote areas of South Vietnam.

Over the years, historians, researchers and independent journalists have made a compelling case that, during the Cold War, thousands of U.S. POWs were moved among Soviet, Chinese and North Korean labor camps, where they toiled and died under the worst conditions.

Families of POWs and MIAs say the U.S. government has turned a blind eye to the plight of these men, even going so far as to sabotage their efforts at finding out what exactly happened to their loved ones.*

But Joe Milliner’s incredible story of his son, told at the June 20 meeting of the National Alliance of POW/MIA Families in Crystal City, Va., could change all of that. Documentation compiled by Milliner could finally force the country to come to terms with the fact that thousands of Americans were abandoned by the U.S.

There is confusion over what happened to Milliner’s son, U.S. Army Warrant Officer William P. Milliner, when the helicopter he was co-piloting disappeared on March 6, 1971. What is known is that William, who was 20 years old at the time, was the co-pilot on an AH1G Cobra helicopter gunship. He was returning from a combat support mission over Laos when he disappeared in cloudy weather.

The military reportedly dispatched a search-and-rescue team to locate William and the pilot of the helicopter, John F. Hummel. Tragically, the two were never located, and the Army eventually gave up looking for them. Over the years, the Milliner family has never given up hope that their son would be found. As with many families of missing soldiers, the U.S. military has been unhelpful, some would even say willfully obstructing honest inquiries into what happened to lost loved ones.

However, recent events have renewed the Milliner’s faith that William is alive and is being held in Southeast Asia against his will, possibly as a slave laborer. The first occasion came as a result of a classified document, which was given to Milliner by a source inside the Pentagon who is sympathetic to MIA-POW families.

The official document was dated Oct. 4, 1989, and reports of a Thai businessman who said U.S. citizens, including a “William P. Milliner,” are being held in a dangerous “no-man’s land” controlled by thugs and warlords in a mountainous region in Laos.

A Thai businessman said he could secure William’s release if the U.S. government were willing to pay a ransom. According to Milliner, U.S. officials shot down any discussion of a reward, effectively killing off any hopes of freeing the American.

Were it not for his friend at the Pentagon, Milliner said the classified account of the exchange between U.S. officials in Thailand and the unnamed businessman was slated to be archived for 50 years and would not be released—even to family members—until 2039.

Since that time, Milliner says that there have been sporadic sightings of his son, including another U.S. document that claims warlords were seeking only $1,800 for the release of his son.

But the most compelling piece of evidence arrived just last year in the form of a letter from a doctor who had been working in Cambodia. According to Milliner, the physician’s account proves to him that his son is still alive somewhere in the jungle.

In September 2007, Milliner says, he received an unsigned letter from someone claiming to be a physician working in Cambodia and Laos.

The doctor wrote that, in early September 2007, he had treated an American man with certain tell-tale wounds. The doctor said that the patient was suffering from a poor amputation of his arm. He also described certain scars that matched other sightings of William that the Milliners have collected over the years.

The doctor said he was unnerved by the extent of secrecy surrounding this patient. He had been driven through the jungle for what he described as a long time, and he was allowed to bring just a few medical instruments and medicine—but no assistants.

The doctor wrote that the guards kept a close watch over this patient. However, in a free moment, the man said in perfect English, punctuated by some Vietnamese, that he is an American being held against his will.

Milliner received that letter in September of last year. Since then, Milliner says he believes the doctor now fears for his life and has gone into hiding. Over the years, he says, presumptive Republican presidential candidate Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) have both undermined efforts to help Americans who are still being held against their will. McCain and Kerry have both weighed in against offering reward money for the release of U.S. citizens who may still be in captivity in Laos, Vietnam, China and North Korea, said Milliner.

 

[mmx1]

Take a step back and consider the source, both of the article and of the claimed sightings, and of the consequences of paying ransom to every joe dick and harry that claims to have seen a white guy in Southeast Asia.

 

[Flash]

You might want to reconsider sourcing an article from the American Free Press, who publishes 9/11 'truth' and Holocaust denial junk.

A selection of articles:

Experts Further Debunk 9-11 Fairy Tale

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/debunk_9-11.html

Ahmadinejad Challenges New World Order Head On

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/iran_s_president_speaks.html

If that is where you choose to get your news, I don't care......but don't post that crap here.

 

[Bevo16]

Nobody looking for any credibility on this issue would repeat this garbage.

 

[Steve Davies]

I posted it simply because there is some information in there that is interesting, not because I thought that the story proved anything.

The parts I found interesting were:

1) That a doctor treated an individual who claimed to be an American held against his will

2) That someone in the Pentagon believed a document that was classified was important enough to leak to family members, and presumably risked quite a lot to do so

I explicitly stated that the article was biased, and should be clear that I certainly wouldn't jump to any conclusions having read it.

You might not rate AFP (and I can understand why you would not), but unless the points raised above are a total fabrication, then the post is valid as something that will be of interest to those with an eye on this topic - it's not about credibility.

Take a step back and consider the source, both of the article and of the claimed sightings, and of the consequences of paying ransom to every joe dick and harry that claims to have seen a white guy in Southeast Asia.

Indeed. I understand that is a considerable problem, just like the issue of the sale of 'recovered' dog tags.

 

[Bevo16]

You might not rate AFP (and I can understand why you would not), but unless the points raised above are a total fabrication, then the post is valid as something that will be of interest to those with an eye on this topic - it's not about credibility.

"Media" sources like AFP do an amazing amount of harm to the those trying to work the issue. Their obvious bias and reputation for fabrication of information gives them no credibility, and they should be totally ignored. The MIA issues is serious business, and having clowns like the AFP on your side puts you in the same box as the fools chasing "Black Helicopters" and UFO's.

With friends like them, you would not need any enemies.

 

[Flash]

You might not rate AFP (and I can understand why you would not), but unless the points raised above are a total fabrication, then the post is valid as something that will be of interest to those with an eye on this topic - it's not about credibility.

It is all about credibility. I would not give credence to anything that got published in that rag, including anything that was claimed in that article. And if there is no credible information in that article, it really adds nothing to the debate......

 

[Steve Davies]

"Media" sources like AFP do an amazing amount of harm to the those trying to work the issue. Their obvious bias and reputation for fabrication of information gives them no credibility, and they should be totally ignored. The MIA issues is serious business, and having clowns like the AFP on your side puts you in the same box as the fools chasing "Black Helicopters" and UFO's.

With friends like them, you would not need any enemies.

Bevo

I was not aware that AFP have a reputation for fabrication. That clearly puts this article into a different light.

However, there appear to be more reputable sources (such as the Homecoming II project) that indicate that Milliner has been the subject of many and various investigations and reports over the years.

The archived website that follows provides quite a long list of entries for him: http://files.usgwarchives.org/ky/state/military/bios/m152.txt

Again, I don't think that any of it is conclusive, but I do find some of the entries particularly noteworthy.

It is all about credibility. I would not give credence to anything that got published in that rag, including anything that was claimed in that article. And if there is no credible information in that article, it really adds nothing to the debate......

Flash

What I meant was that I was not trying to gain credibility - I was posting something that had caught my interest, and was not trying to present it as conclusive evidence/proof of anything.

In light of what you and Bevo have said about the AFP being known to completely fabricate stories, then I agree wholeheartedly that this publication deserves to be treated with a large pinch of salt.