POWs unacknowledged in China, Libya and Laos?

[phrogdriver]

The onus is not on college students writing theses to prove that some were left behind, but on the US government, its assorted agencies and their collective might, to prove that this is not the case. To date, they have not done so to the satisfaction of many who still live in hope.
.

No, when somebody comes up with a largely unsubstantiated theory with huge implications, it's the responsibility of the individual making outrageous claims to prove them, not the government's responsibility to disprove. Especially when it involves trying to prove a negative,i.e., that there are no POWs in SE Asia. There's always a little more jungle that someone will say we haven't searched.

 

[Scoob]

I think Phrogdriver said it best:

Why would anyone in the region hold Americans covertly? In the years immediately following the war, captives could have been used as leverage against the US, if used openly. Secret hostages are useless.

How about out of spite or hate - two themes that were far more prevalent in the Vietnam War than were the economic reasons cited.

 

[Steve Davies]

No, when somebody comes up with a largely unsubstantiated theory with huge implications, it's the responsibility of the individual making outrageous claims to prove them, not the government's responsibility to disprove. Especially when it involves trying to prove a negative,i.e., that there are no POWs in SE Asia. There's always a little more jungle that someone will say we haven't searched.

In my view, you are putting the cart before the horse.

The only reason that college a student is able to write such a thesis is because the US government has not done enough to convince people that that there is nothing to be found. The reasons for that are many and varied, as I have suggested.

And, when such claims are made, it certainly is the responsibility of the government to address them - they owe that much to the families who still wait.

The 'massive implications' that you talk about are ones that should have been dealt with by the US government decades ago. Had they done so properly, then such debates would be few and far between.

 

[A4sForever]

You gents who are wondering "why" anyone would hold POW's after the conflict are thinking like Westerners. You don't study your history, or if you do -- it's not sinking in .... and that's why you don't get it w/ the subject at hand...

Just to cite one example of the "Oriental" mindset -- the Germans lost tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of POW's thruout WW2 who were never repatriated by the Communists at the cessation of hostilities. That's documented, that's a dirty little fact ... to cite one example from WW2 Data Base.com:

" ...Out of the 90,000 Germans who marched into Soviet captivity at Stalingrad, only 5,000 returned from Russia. Most German POWs were held for ten years after the war ..."

When YOU don't understand YOUR enemies mindset; when YOU continue to judge others' actions by YOUR OWN set of rules and understanding -- you will lose every time.

 

[Flash]

You gents who are wondering "why" anyone would hold POW's after the conflict are thinking like Westerners. You don't study your history, or if you do -- it's not sinking in.... and that's why you don't get it w/ the subject at hand...........When YOU don't understand YOUR enemies mindset; when YOU continue to judge others' actions by YOUR OWN set of rules and understanding -- you will lose every time.

Since when did everything have to be be a conspiracy? The simplest explanations are often the the ones that turn out to be right.

The simplest reason that we have not found any hard evidence that POW's have been held against their will after the end of the Vietnam War could be that there were not any.

Even though you you mock my insistence that there should be some concrete 'proof' of POW's being kept, what else do you have other than rumors and hints? Oriental mindset or not, and your supposed expertise in this area, without hard evidence you don't have much at all.

 

[A4sForever]

....without hard evidence you don't have much at all.

I notice you conveniently overlooked the point about German POW's not being repatriated.

Like I said earlier, the trail for me has grown cold w/ the passage of time and being out of the loop for years ... but when it wasn't ... cold??

I laugh at the arrogance born of ignorance that you display. Where were YOU in 1973 when the POW's came home?? Wetting the bed?? Popping pimples on the mirror?? Just a twinkle in Daddy's eye??

Did YOU talk w/ any of them -- you know -- your former classmates & squadron mates ??? Were YOU involved when the trail was "hot"??? No??? That's what I thought ...

 

[phrogpilot73]

When YOU don't understand YOUR enemies mindset; when YOU continue to judge others' actions by YOUR OWN set of rules and understanding -- you will lose every time.

Hmmm, that sounds like someone read Sun Tzu... How did he put it?

If you know the enemy and you know yourself, you will find success in a hundred battles. If you know yourself, but not the enemy - for every victory gained you will suffer a defeat. If you know neither yourself nor the enemy, you will succumb in a thousand battles.

Something like that...

 

[HackerF15E]

All these arguments about burden of proof in cases like POWs are fruitless.

I absolutely don't agree that it's the US government's responsibility to disprove every outrageous theory that's thrown out there.

No matter what the theory is, SOMEONE will still always think there's a massive conspiracy to cover something up, regardless of the evidence presented.

 

[phrogdriver]

I don't know about hot trails, cold trails, whatever. I'll freely admit I've never met a guy who saw a guy in the woods who's missing now, etc, etc.

People have been spinning the POW left behind bit since the war ended with no results except some bogus photographs. We've gotten pretty extensive access to the area by official observers and they've found nothing.

I don't think the German example can be fairly extended here. The Russians are rarely called "Oriental," for one. Also, the Soviets had nothing to fear from Germany in retaliation. East Germany was their puppet, and West Germany was held in check by the East/West power struggle.

 

[Flash]

I notice you conveniently overlooked the point about German POW's not being repatriated.

Most of the men who never came back perished from harsh Soviet treatment, and in 1955 the Soviets actually gave up German POW's who had been kept since the end of the war and that had been well-known publicly. Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann being one of the last returnees. So much for keeping them secret.

I laugh at the arrogance born of ignorance that you display. Where were YOU in 1973 when the POW's came home?? Wetting the bed?? Popping pimples on the mirror?? Just a twinkle in Daddy's eye??

Did YOU talk w/ any of them -- you know -- your former classmates & squadron mates ??? Were YOU involved when the trail was "hot"??? No??? That's what I thought ...

My arrogance? I have never pretended to know any of the POW/MIA's. I realize that and respect dearly the sacrifice that they made for their country. But I abhor the suggestion that just because I did not know them personally means that I do not want them all returned, and to know the full truth of what happened to each and every single one of them. Just because I am not of their generation does not mean that I have any less desire to see them returned home. To suggest so is, well, arrogant.

I want the truth, same as you, but I have yet to see anything that definitively shows that POW's were left behind. If you want arrogant, it would be so to assume that countless military and civilian personnel in the US government, in addition to the countries/groups that kept them, are in a massive conspiracy to hide evidence that we knew we left men behind against their will, and of silence to keep the real truth from coming out. If there had been any hard evidence that there were POW's in Southeast Asia then why has it not come to light? Someone in government would have spilled the beans by now. Anyone who has been in government long enough knows that to be the case.

And if there is any insight to the the oriental 'mindset' that you have so repeatedly claimed to be an expert......then why don't we look at the case of two CIA officers that were kept for almost 20 years there. They could have held them incommunicado for eternity, but China let their capture become public knowledge and eventually released them. How does that fit with the practice of secretly holding people for good? And even if you find it hard to believe, the CIA never gave up in it's efforts to release the men after they gained knowledge of their capture.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article1685467.ece

Question my politics or my beliefs, but don't question my love of this country and the dedication to my fellow citizen's, especially those who have sacrificed their lives to defend it. To do otherwise is, well.......you can guess.

 

[A4sForever]

...follows hysterical post ...

I give up w/ you. You've totally misread my meaning(s) and intentions. If you REALLY think I'm trying to question your patriotism or service because we have a fundamental disagreement on principle ... then you're clueless as well. And you DON'T know what was going on w/ the POW/MIA search 25+ years ago, I assure you.

Mary Louise Hall (Harley Hall's wife) said it better in 1993 than I ever will. If you don't buy my viewpoint, at least honor hers:
"the United States Government's "highest national priority" in this area is to shorten if not eliminate the missing list and close the book on as many discrepancy cases as possible, even if it means a completely false burial of hundreds of Americans - all to expunge the past, achieve a hasty and slipshod "accounting," and facilitate lucrative and politically expedient relation with Hanoi...."

Let us hope you're better at reading present intelligence than you are at reading my mind.

/OUT

 

[A4sForever]

...The Russians are rarely called "Oriental," for one. ...

You guys need to get out more.

That's exactly what they're called in many traditional writings -- even including the so-called "White" Russians in some cases. And as a good portion of the Soviet population resided in the areas east of the Urals they have traditionally been considered "other than Western". Try reading more Winston Churchill immediately pops to mind.

Occidental: Occidental means generally "western". It is a traditional designation (especially when capitalized) for anything belonging to the Occident or "West" (i.e., Europe and the New World), and especially pertains to it's Western culture. Occident derives from the Latin occidens - sunset, -west, as distinct from the Orient.

Oriental : Oriental has traditionally referred to everything else; in earlier Western times and writings -- it referred to "further East". Over time the term has encompassed areas such as the Middle East, the Russian steppes, Persia, Turkey, everything east of the Urals, the Indian subcontinent, and eventually reaching east to the shores of the Pacific Ocean. Oriental derives from the Latin word oriens (rising) and equally likely, from the Greek word 'he'oros', i.e., the direction of the rising sun.

Never heard of "We 3 Kings of Orient Are ... "??? They weren't exactly zipperheads, you know ...

A depiction of Occidental (Western) and Oriental (non-Western, i.e., everything else) cultures. Guess which one the blue represents ???

 

[WishICouldFly]

...Righteous posts...

I'm just glad, that at the end of the day, we're all on the same side. :icon_tong

 

[DSL1990]

You guys need to get out more.

That's exactly what they're called in many traditional writings -- even including the so-called "White" Russians in some cases. And as a good portion of the Soviet population resided in the areas east of the Urals they have traditionally been considered "other than Western". Try reading more Winston Churchill immediately pops to mind.

Occidental: Occidental means generally "western". It is a traditional designation (especially when capitalized) for anything belonging to the Occident or "West" (i.e., Europe and the New World), and especially pertains to it's Western culture. Occident derives from the Latin occidens - sunset, -west, as distinct from the Orient.

Oriental : Oriental has traditionally referred to everything else; in earlier Western times and writings -- it referred to "further East". Over time the term has encompassed areas such as the Middle East, the Russian steppes, Persia, Turkey, everything east of the Urals, the Indian subcontinent, and eventually reaching east to the shores of the Pacific Ocean. Oriental derives from the Latin word oriens (rising) and equally likely, from the Greek word 'he'oros', i.e., the direction of the rising sun.

Never heard of "We 3 Kings of Orient Are ... "??? They weren't exactly zipperheads, you know ...

A depiction of Occidental (Western) and Oriental (non-Western, i.e., everything else) cultures. Guess which one the blue represents ???

this map can't be real. israel is colored blue and they are all a semitic people which is asian. also greenland is colored blue when 80% of the people there are eskimos which are non-western too. eskimos are sort of asians.

 

[zippy]

this map can't be real. israel is colored blue and they are all a semitic people which is asian. also greenland is colored blue when 80% of the people there are eskimos which are non-western too. eskimos are sort of asians.

Blue = Western Culture. -1 for reading comprehension.