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Road to 350: What Does the US Navy Do Anyway?

AllAmerican75

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CNO Gilday: ‘We Need a Naval Force of Over 500 Ships’​

By: Sam LaGrone and Mallory Shelbourne
February 18, 2022 8:09 PM


View attachment 34523
Arleigh Burke-class guided-missile destroyer USS Spruance (DDG-111), left, USS America (LHA-6), and Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson (CVN-70), transit the Philippine Sea on Jan. 22, 2022.

Good luck. Where is the CNO going to get the funding? The remuneration on our national debt and the ever-expanding nature of our social safety nets (read welfare) programs are going to run roughshod over the funds needed to build a 500 ship Navy, let alone keep the shore infrastructure up and running needed to support them. With the current political discourse more concerned with Diversity & Inclusion™® and universal healthcare, I just don't see the political will to build a Navy of that size.

While I agree with that report, we've got to get better at maintenance and manning first. I recognize T&P can be pretty editorial and opinionated to one side, but the GAO report remains.

Bandaids and Duct Tape Maintenance

Oh no, how dare we worry about the entire life cycle of the fleet and keeping what we have afloat. :eek:
Don't you know that logistics aren't sexy? What will you think of next, the construction of new oilers, repair ships, sea-going tugs, and tenders? Maybe even build/reopen another public shipyard on the West Coast? Blasphemy! ?
 

Flash

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Good luck. Where is the CNO going to get the funding? The remuneration on our national debt and the ever-expanding nature of our social safety nets (read welfare) programs are going to run roughshod over the funds needed to build a 500 ship Navy, let alone keep the shore infrastructure up and running needed to support them. With the current political discourse more concerned with Diversity & Inclusion™® and universal healthcare, I just don't see the political will to build a Navy of that size.

Social programs or not, there is little political appetite on either side of the aisle to almost double our fleet numbers. The last time we tried that did cut social programs but also taxes, who wants to actually pay for what we spend on, and shockingly we still didn't get to our intended fleet size.
 

UInavy

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Good luck. Where is the CNO going to get the funding? The remuneration on our national debt and the ever-expanding nature of our social safety nets (read welfare) programs are going to run roughshod over the funds needed to build a 500 ship Navy, let alone keep the shore infrastructure up and running needed to support them. With the current political discourse more concerned with Diversity & Inclusion™® and universal healthcare, I just don't see the political will to build a Navy of that size.
I'm very curious to know, quantitatively, where you've seen the bolded part take away funding or readiness from warfighting.
 

AllAmerican75

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So, just eliminate all that stuff? I'll give you one guess what your average American voter cares more about.

That's exactly my point, Brett. I'm saying the political will of our nation is at ever-increasing odds with our needs for defense and power projection around the world. We will never achieve a 500 ship Navy because we lack the political will to do so. If you remember your Clausewitz and Corbett, then you know that you the political and military will of a nation are inseparable.

I'm very curious to know, quantitatively, where you've seen the bolded part take away funding or readiness from warfighting.

Go to Google and search for the DoD's DIE consultants, instructors, and auditors. They are out there and easy to find. Go see how much they charge for their services. It's a staggering amount. Diversity & Inclusion™® are an industry now that grifts just as well as any other defense contractor. Somebody has to pay for their doctorates in underwater basket-weaving and all of the attendant student loans. But if you want real numbers, feel free to dig through nearly two decades worth of material wherein a former Navy SWO O5 has tried to document just how much it has cost us in both monetary and qualitative metrics: https://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/search/label/Diversity
 

UInavy

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Go to Google and search for the DoD's DIE consultants, instructors, and auditors. They are out there and easy to find. Go see how much they charge for their services. It's a staggering amount. Diversity & Inclusion™® are an industry now that grifts just as well as any other defense contractor. Somebody has to pay for their doctorates in underwater basket-weaving and all of the attendant student loans. But if you want real numbers, feel free to dig through nearly two decades worth of material wherein a former Navy SWO O5 has tried to document just how much it has cost us in both monetary and qualitative metrics: https://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/search/label/Diversity
Thanks for confirming my hunch.

I can confirm that increasing diversity over the last 20+ years has correlated with better performance of the squadrons and CVWs I've been in and literally took ZERO away from effectiveness- including any of the minor required trainings. I don't have the metrics to prove causation- just experience.

However, the author at your link does not have proof of (nor could you provide when asked) causation or decreased warfighting readiness or performance as a result of promotion of diversity- nor has he actually ever served in Command or in the Navy in the last 15-ish years. Maybe things are different in surface warfare, I don't know. I do know that the plural of anecdote =/= data and that no money has ever been pulled from an RTD&E, ACQ or O&M budget to pay for any of these services. Care to counter any of that?

I don't use this phrase lightly, but 'dog whistle' is a very, very close description of what the author at your link provides.
 

Brett327

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I'm saying the political will of our nation is at ever-increasing odds with our needs for defense and power projection around the world.
“…that government of the people, by the people, for the people,, etc, etc.”
It’s the American people’s wish to not prioritize having an enormous Navy over a social safety net, and their duly elected representatives in Congress are carrying out their will. Seems like exactly what the Founders would have wanted. That this doesn’t align with your particular worldview doesn’t seem particularly relevant. Whether we counter an expansionist China with a 500 ship Navy or not almost certainly isn’t an existential matter for this country. So, unless you’ve got a way to persuade an entire country to radically alter how we allocate government resources, you’re wasting your energy insisting that it happen.
 

Flash

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That's exactly my point, Brett. I'm saying the political will of our nation is at ever-increasing odds with our needs for defense and power projection around the world. We will never achieve a 500 ship Navy because we lack the political will to do so. If you remember your Clausewitz and Corbett, then you know that you the political and military will of a nation are inseparable.

There isn't the political will in either major party to get to that number for the Navy, if there is even where we should be, but there remains a considerably strong will to maintain a capable military and that has been demonstrated across both parties when in power.

To be frank I think many of the Navy's current issues have more to do with internal Navy and DoD issues than with our budget, with some Navy and DoD staffs doing a poor job of managing the forces we have on hand and not optimizing what we are spending our money on. I've seen some improvements recently but we need to also fix our own house and not just blame our issues on easy targets like our political leadership.

Go to Google and search for the DoD's DIE consultants, instructors, and auditors. They are out there and easy to find. Go see how much they charge for their services. It's a staggering amount. Diversity & Inclusion™® are an industry now that grifts just as well as any other defense contractor. Somebody has to pay for their doctorates in underwater basket-weaving and all of the attendant student loans. But if you want real numbers, feel free to dig through nearly two decades worth of material wherein a former Navy SWO O5 has tried to document just how much it has cost us in both monetary and qualitative metrics: https://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/search/label/Diversity

Sal has long had an axe to grind about diversity and inclusion stuff in the Navy and DoD but as someone who has had to live through all of the stuff he complains about the last 25 years his is an outsiders view looking in on how he thinks things are and not the reality. He way overstates the time and effort spent on the stuff he points out when in reality there is very little devoted to either in the grand scheme of things, but his skewed view shouldn't be surprising for someone who has been out of the Navy for well over 10 years now and blogs for a living.

As a civilian and a reservist, double-tapping a considerable amount of the same training along with the diversity and inclusion initiatives, the amount of time I spend on this stuff is miniscule compared to my actual job, and even how much time I spend on this site.

Finally on a personal note, I have seen considerable change in who makes up the sailors and officers in our Navy since the start of my career 25 years ago. My first squadron had a grand total of one female aviator and roughly half a dozen minority male aviators out of about the ~150 or so that were in the unit from the time I showed up to the time I left. My last command, a SWO-centric one, not only was a majority of the sailors minorities but roughly a quarter were female, and around half the officers were minority and/or female. So if there are modest efforts to ensure that those sailors and officers feel as much as part of the Navy as others along with making their concerns are heard and acknowledged, the Navy is that much better for it.
 

AllAmerican75

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“…that government of the people, by the people, for the people,, etc, etc.”
It’s the American people’s wish to not prioritize having an enormous Navy over a social safety net, and their duly elected representatives in Congress are carrying out their will. Seems like exactly what the Founders would have wanted. That this doesn’t align with your particular worldview doesn’t seem particularly relevant. Whether we counter an expansionist China with a 500 ship Navy or not almost certainly isn’t an existential matter for this country. So, unless you’ve got a way to persuade an entire country to radically alter how we allocate government resources, you’re wasting your energy insisting that it happen.

Brett, I'm not sure what you're arguing about. We are in agreement. I am insisting that we will never reach a 500 ship Navy for the exact reasons you mentioned above.

There isn't the political will in either major party to get to that number for the Navy, if there is even where we should be, but there remains a considerably strong will to maintain a capable military and that has been demonstrated across both parties when in power.

To be frank I think many of the Navy's current issues have more to do with internal Navy and DoD issues than with our budget, with some Navy and DoD staffs doing a poor job of managing the forces we have on hand and not optimizing what we are spending our money on. I've seen some improvements recently but we need to also fix our own house and not just blame our issues on easy targets like our political leadership.

I agree that we do a terrible job of managing the resources we do have but there is an issue as well with what the vision of our ideal future navy should be. I get the feeling that we are trapped in a Cold War mentality still and aren't paying attention to what will be needed to counter China. If anything, we should look at what made us successful against the Japanese and work towards that. It was more about fit and fill than just shear numbers in the Pacific Theater.

Thanks for confirming my hunch.

I can confirm that increasing diversity over the last 20+ years has correlated with better performance of the squadrons and CVWs I've been in and literally took ZERO away from effectiveness- including any of the minor required trainings. I don't have the metrics to prove causation- just experience.

However, the author at your link does not have proof of (nor could you provide when asked) causation or decreased warfighting readiness or performance as a result of promotion of diversity- nor has he actually ever served in Command or in the Navy in the last 15-ish years. Maybe things are different in surface warfare, I don't know. I do know that the plural of anecdote =/= data and that no money has ever been pulled from an RTD&E, ACQ or O&M budget to pay for any of these services. Care to counter any of that?

I don't use this phrase lightly, but 'dog whistle' is a very, very close description of what the author at your link provides.

This is the last I will say about DIE because I don't believe we will ever shift eachother's thoughts on the matter: I have never not served in a diverse Navy. I have had the privilege to serve with a cornucopia of Sailors and officers from all walks of life and ethnicities. We all bleed red, white, and blue to some degree.

But I have also seen the nasty head of the diversity industry rear its head with increasing regularity within the service and upon the minds of senior leadership, i.e. O6 and above. When I am told that I cannot get higher than a 3.0 on certain blocks of my FITREP because I'm a white male or a group of senior O6s open a mandatory diversity training event with the line "We need fewer white men in the Navy," then I am left to ponder whether we're really going the right direction. When senior admirals like Christopher Grady and Michael Gilday testify to Congress that Diversity and Inclusion are their top priorities while I see the portion of the Navy's budget that I manage shrink every FY, then I start to wonder whether or not we're making the best decisions of where to spend our time and money. @UInavy if you really want answers to your original questions, you can dig through the annual budgets that get sent to Congress and are a matter of public record. It may be broken out by line item, but will likely just be included as generic training budgets. Either way, I am concerned by the fact that we seem to want to focus more on what makes us different than on the commonalities we share and the common love of country we have. YMMV.
 

Brett327

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Brett, I'm not sure what you're arguing about. We are in agreement. I am insisting that we will never reach a 500 ship Navy for the exact reasons you mentioned above.
Right, but you seem to be complaining about it… along with non-problems like “diversity.” My advice to you stands… make a more compelling argument for a bigger fleet.
 

Brett327

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O6 and above. When I am told that I cannot get higher than a 3.0 on certain blocks of my FITREP because I'm a white male
This is laughably false. Complete absurdity. Given that fact, perhaps you should consider which of your other assumptions on diversity in the Navy are also dead wrong.
 

AllAmerican75

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Right, but you seem to be complaining about it… along with non-problems like “diversity.” My advice to you stands… make a more compelling argument for a bigger fleet.
I was commenting on the fact that a 500 ship Navy is a pipedream given the current political climate. Nothing more, nothing less. Seems to me you're the one spoiling for a fight. I'll go ahead and end it here: You won the argument. Congratulations.
 
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