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Road to 350: What Does the US Navy Do Anyway?

hscs

Registered User
pilot
In layman's terms: The navy discovered a 1940s manufacturing process in the 00s to save money. Apparently this required a hull change from the seawolf class to virginia class. Everyone high-fived themselves about this "novel" discovery.

The engineering of ship's hull and propulsion systems is mostly optimized with very small room for improvement, aside from ensuring quality of work from our barrel bellied, alcoholic, felony-convicted shipyard bubbas. Combat system sensors (radar, sonar, ew, etc.) and things that go boom are where we can make meaningful technological advancements.

Sorry for the jargon.
You oversimplified this - building a car vs building something to Subsafe / NR standards with HY100 that is thousands of LT in displacement.

And anytime you want to try and do some of the work that these alcoholic, felony convicted workers do, be my guest. And OBTW, you get your badge clipped if you even get charged with a felony, much less convicted.

When you actually know what you’re talking about, then start posting.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
You oversimplified this - building a car vs building something to Subsafe / NR standards with HY100 that is thousands of LT in displacement.

And anytime you want to try and do some of the work that these alcoholic, felony convicted workers do, be my guest. And OBTW, you get your badge clipped if you even get charged with a felony, much less convicted.

When you actually know what you’re talking about, then start posting.
I didn't say building a submarine is the same as building a car. What I implied was that 60 years was far too long for the Navy to discover that building a sub in modules and assembling it at the end saves a ton of money. Especially when the technology improvements over its LA class predecessor are extremely incremental.

There's a man sitting in prison right now for being the first person to destroy a submarine since the Japanese sunk the Bullhead on Aug 6, 1945. According to you, he should've had his badge clipped. Oops.

Sorry if I struck a nerve.

Second shift bro. Mahalo! 🤙
 
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BigRed389

Registered User
None
I didn't say building a submarine is the same as building a car. What I implied was that 60 years was far too long for the Navy to discover that building a sub in modules and assembling it at the end saves a ton of money. Especially when the technology improvements over its LA class predecessor are extremely incremental.

There's a man sitting in prison right now for being the first person to destroy a submarine since the Japanese sunk the Bullhead on Aug 6, 1945. According to you, he should've had his badge clipped. Oops.

Sorry if I struck a nerve.

Second shift bro. Mahalo! 🤙
Shipyards are very tribal in how they operate…so I’m not surprised it took them a while to get there.

But there’s also the fact that machining extremely large irregularly shaped objects made of unforgiving materials to very precise tolerances are basically opposing requirements.

The other point related to shipyard workforce quality is…if you want better workers, pay more. Or build a glut in the labor pool of skilled laborers. The shipyards aren’t incentivized to go better/faster on their own via fixed price contracts. Which may sound totally insane and counter to how fixed price works in theory land…but that’s pretty much how that goes more often than it should.
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
Shipyards are very tribal in how they operate…so I’m not surprised it took them a while to get there.

But there’s also the fact that machining extremely large irregularly shaped objects made of unforgiving materials to very precise tolerances are basically opposing requirements.

The other point related to shipyard workforce quality is…if you want better workers, pay more. Or build a glut in the labor pool of skilled laborers. The shipyards aren’t incentivized to go better/faster on their own via fixed price contracts. Which may sound totally insane and counter to how fixed price works in theory land…but that’s pretty much how that goes more often than it should.
We were technologically capable of adapting the Heny Ford assembly process well before the VA class submarine. What prompted the change was the fall of the Soviet Union and political pressure inside the beltway in the 1990s whereupon policy makers kept asking "why do we need submarines?" instead of writing the Navy blank checks to combat the Russian boogeyman. Along with that, policymakers railed against the Seawolf's design requirements to be able to unilaterally defeat a CSG in a blue-water engagement as wasteful because haha who else operates CSGs besides the USN? The output was a cheaper platform infused mostly with intel community design requirements that sacrificed ASUW capability for INT, especially because the engineers royally fucked up the propulsion efficiency curves.

Again, oops.

So we just self-flagellate over the analogue of trying to defeat a company sized element with a 6-shot revolver and a bandolier of 50 extra bullets.

As for workforce quality - yep, shipyards were paying what is now sub minimum wage just a few years ago for journeyman level craftsmen. The poor wages and spartan working conditions were captured in this riveting documentary about how a shipyard bubba worked hard to send his son to the federal boxing academy USNA.


But in the meantime, the average idle time for a sub undergoing a depot level maintenance period is 225 days. Of course, this doesn't account for all the shoddy patch-jobs they sweep under the rug to let the crew fix in a pierside maintenance period to get the boat out 'on time' (meaning, they meet the date that was already pushed back 3 times), because that doesn't actually exist anywhere on paper. And this practice of buttoning up broken shit to meet already overdue deadlines isn't unique to submarines.

Also, did you know that if you had a master's degree or PhD in clinical psychology, that the Navy will pay you up to $48,000 a year to provide mental health treatment to sailors?

Yes, I used some hyperbole, mostly for humor. But apparently that was lost on some overly sensitive people.
 
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JTS11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Contributor
Is it bad that in my half century of living that I've never heard of the word 'pertinacious'?:(
 

AllAmerican75

FUBIJAR
None
Contributor
Burkes did relatively well in construction because we developed a pretty good idea of what we want them to do, and it fit well in the Fleet design. If you dig back far enough though, they had their growing pains…there’s a reason my first ship was first nicknamed “Always Broke.” Once the design stabilized we got pretty good at building them. And the Fleet actually wanted them enough to let the design go through the growing pains. So I’d agree with Flash…there are some designs we do know how to build. The problem is capacity, which is both about infrastructure and the labor force. Where you have a point, is that we don’t have another labor pool and spare yards to tap to increase capacity. FFG is an example of that…the yards that are stamping ships out for us are tapped out, which in what incentivized us to look for someone new…which has been part of the problem.

LCS, Zumwalt and Ford are examples of ships where the Navy tried to get too fucking clever for its own good. Ford…y’all know plenty about the problem of shoving all the experimental technologies into a ship at once. The first two were designed to requirements and missions that made zero fucking sense, the Navy couldn’t make up its mind what it wanted, and the Fleet hated the idea of what the Navy was pushing. We really should’ve just fucking built more Burkes and FFG7s instead of trying to get cute.

Constellation is a bit different…though some themes repeated. It does actually fit the conventional Fleet design pretty well, in the sense it is at its worst still a shit load better than a FFG7, and the Fleet would immediately know WTF to do with it.

Where Navy did screw up is in signing up for a design requirement that made no sense…forcing it to adopt an “in service” foreign design inspired false confidence, because at a minimum we had to rip out all their weapon systems to incorporate ours. Then someone (Congress?) fucked it even harder because a whole lot of exemptions in the original Euro design from “Buy American” got shit canned, forcing them to swap in additional US mechanical and electrical systems too. I’m not sure who screwed up the survivability standards requiring further redesign. From folks I know - the shipyard didn’t do great either. They apparently didn’t actually expect to win, and weren’t actually ready with enough engineers/architects and skilled technical labor in the yard to actually deliver what they signed up for.

Bottom line, the aviation analogy I would use:

We bought a Eurofighter, then declared we’d be able to rapidly onshore the design to build despite:
1) Needing to replace all the avionics, ordnance systems, and radar/EW with US systems
2) not checking if we could just accept their structural standards…it’d be like taking an AF jet and deciding we needed to beef it up for carrier landings then surprise face - it’s a heavy pig
3) instead of going to an established manufacturer like LM or Boeing, deciding to go to a relatively new startup who had only previously built jet trainers.
3A) after picking the new guys, make it even harder for them by telling them midstream that they need to up the amount of the European design using US parts. So…engines, electrical systems, whatever it takes to hit some arbitrary number
OHP Class FFGs mentioned!!! :D 🥳
1200px-USS_Underwood_FFG-36.jpg
I get you. Yeah the TLDR of my post would’ve been that you and Flash were both kinda right.

it’s a fair point to question if we could design a new warship today. I heard CNO Gilday pretty much rip a bunch of people a new one that Constellation needed to not be a fuck up to essentially put that same perception to bed. I have no idea why the hell they picked FMM (the new guys) to do first of class design and construction, especially given how much they were going to have to modify the imported design.

What gets lost in the shuffle is DDG Flight III going relatively smoothly. It’s not quite as noticeable as a brand new ship class, but it was also a major ship redesign from the previous ship design

War footing scale for ship construction is a more complex discussion. I’m not sold we actually need it, or that we could even do anything productive with it even if the material side could support it. But for now we have the yards that we have, who have the capacity they have. If we want more, we need to be ready to pay a lot more.
The benefit of having lots of ship production capacity is that you can repurpose it for ship repair which we will absolutely need tons of. Our expeditionary repair capability (Tenders, repair ships, and Seabees building repair piers) and tons of shipyard capacity allowed us to keep ships in the fight more often and faster than the Japanese. It was a major force multiplier for us. We will not win another war at sea without that.
 

Hotdogs

I don’t care if I hurt your feelings
pilot
Watching them defend F-35B while essentially asking for a Super Hornet at the NARG every year was the embodiment of “pertinacious”.
I will say watching the gestapo come down and crush my peers at the ready room level years ago was quite amusing.
USMC, love you guys, but damn you’re stubborn, even by Navy standards.
Its very hard to think outside of one's own domain. Fortunately or unfortunately, we have to be tied into all of them in some respect because we're reliant on the joint force at some point. That ruffles a lot of feathers when we call bullshit on the other services, because no one likes some one else commenting on their own shitty lawn care (ourselves included). The food fight with the Navy gets more publicity because of two reasons - Resource allocation and historical enmity. Arguably the disagreements with the Army ashore have had much more operational impact than the Navy. The Gulf War drama with the Army was actually very tense at the GOFO level (Also first big rep post-Goldwater-Nichols), but kept in house until the war was over. OEF to a lesser extent because it was more of a "show me your homework" than outright rejection.
 

Randy Daytona

Cold War Relic
pilot
Super Moderator
From the CIMSEC article:

A few months later, Del Toro released the fiscal year 2023 shipbuilding planin April, presenting an unhelpful package of three alternative plans for a range of 7 to 9 “big deck” ships and 15 to 26 “small deck” ships for a total between 22 to 26 by fiscal year 2045. The reduction in large amphibs would prevent the Marines from simultaneously deploying three Marine Expeditionary Units.

Wonder if the Navy will add more small amphibious ships and have less gator big decks? It also mentioned less big decks and the Navy couldn’t keep 3 MEU’s at sea - wonder if the range of the MV-22 will mean more SPMAGTF’s and less MEU’s?
 

Spekkio

He bowls overhand.
From the CIMSEC article:

A few months later, Del Toro released the fiscal year 2023 shipbuilding planin April, presenting an unhelpful package of three alternative plans for a range of 7 to 9 “big deck” ships and 15 to 26 “small deck” ships for a total between 22 to 26 by fiscal year 2045. The reduction in large amphibs would prevent the Marines from simultaneously deploying three Marine Expeditionary Units.

Wonder if the Navy will add more small amphibious ships and have less gator big decks? It also mentioned less big decks and the Navy couldn’t keep 3 MEU’s at sea - wonder if the range of the MV-22 will mean more SPMAGTF’s and less MEU’s?
We need to have a CNO in order to be able to answer any of these questions.

But apparently firing exceptionally talented senior leaders was the way for the current administration to send some kind of message ...
 

BigRed389

Registered User
None
OHP Class FFGs mentioned!!! :D 🥳
View attachment 42125

The benefit of having lots of ship production capacity is that you can repurpose it for ship repair which we will absolutely need tons of. Our expeditionary repair capability (Tenders, repair ships, and Seabees building repair piers) and tons of shipyard capacity allowed us to keep ships in the fight more often and faster than the Japanese. It was a major force multiplier for us. We will not win another war at sea without that.
I hear ya on the repairs…but the problem I have when the dive/salvage dudes are getting all liquored up over it is the WW2 stories are from a time when repairing weapon systems was a lot simpler.

Welding holes in hulls and getting pumps and pipes replaced is one thing…rerunning the maze of fiber optic cable is a different story.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a worthwhile goal, just not as simple as getting the shipyards populated with extra welders and pipefitters…all the supply chain for complex or more boutique items behind it (gas turbines, fire control systems and radars) in a position to surge on repairs too. Which, if we decide to do get them there, will be obscenely expensive.

And figure out how we train enough replacement crew to send ships back out after they’ve been patched up.

Thats aside from the tactical problem of rigging a ship for tow to get it off the X while in the enemy WEZ…
 
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