Scariest Day/Night Flying

[lowflier03]

The story - well, we spend hours upon hours in the tac syllabus teaching it, coming up with our own scary stories (and luckily no mishaps) to run through maneuvers that have little value in an actual combat scenario. Dash 2 should know where he needs to be from your brief and put his aircraft there. Enough said. Things also get more complicated when you have more than 2 aircraft in a formation. Finally, good luck making any of those radio calls with chatter on multiple radios and potential jamming. The time is better spent nav'ing sans GPS and practicing form landings.

Concur, all they do is teach some principles of maneuverability and energy management that any good HAC can teach in the process of flying any other night lvl 2 or 3 flight. (But in a more dangrous setting due to how they end up being done) Learning how to navigate is a dying art. Lots of training time can be better spent in other areas.

 

[phrogdriver]

Spread in helos really doesn't help survivability very much, if at all. That said, unless you're doing big evasive maneuvers or screwing away a cross turn, I can't see how you'd get in extremis doing it.

 

[Pags]

Calling a terminate for bad tacform? Since A4's isn't around to say it....."I weep...."

Calling terminate during a LVL 2 training flight is bad form? If something isn't happening correctly, or someone is screwing up then call a terminate and reset the flight.

Remember, this is all done during tacform training events (LVL2, day and NVD). Calling terminate during other flights that involve tacform is very rare.

 

[Pags]

Concur, all they do is teach some principles of maneuverability and energy management that any good HAC can teach in the process of flying any other night lvl 2 or 3 flight. (But in a more dangrous setting due to how they end up being done) Learning how to navigate is a dying art. Lots of training time can be better spent in other areas.

Tacform cards aren't meant to be the end all be all. Like you said, they are there to give nuggets dedicated time in the syllabus to learn the principles of how to maneuver a formation. Trying to teach tacform at the same time as another card is putting a lot on a guy's plate.

Good perspective from the guys who have been there, done that from HSCS.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Calling terminate during a LVL 2 training flight is bad form? If something isn't happening correctly, or someone is screwing up then call a terminate and reset the flight

I didn't mean that it would be a bad call, I just meant that -2 shouldn't be that far out of position to require it in the first place. But yes, I will defer to gators and others comments re: helo tacform......I have no doubt that comparatively speaking, our airframes make it much easier than yours. Which begs the question of why you would do it if it is so tasking for a wingman. For us, combat spread is pretty easy to manage and allows 1) better MCT's, and 2) a true level of visual mutual support for the section/division/etc. If whatever tacform position you all fly doesn't allow 1 and 2, then in IMHO, what is the value added? I'm simply just curious, as the helo world is pretty foreign to me.

 

[BACONATOR]

Technically, wouldn't it be TERMINATE?

No, it wouldn't. Our squadron specifically addressed these terms. Terminate is to complete a maneuver and move on to the next thing (ie: for training, we're done with TAC turns or we're done with gun patterns "Terminate, rolling out 270", let's terminate this portion and move onto the next thing).

KIO is to STOP all training (or if on a mission, stop whatever dynamic maneuver caused the SOF issue), for a safety of flight issue (ie: you can't see wing), get to a safe flight regime, ensure altitude/pos separation, figure out what went wrong, re-establish whatever you were doing, or discuss intentions from there. KIO =/= RTB. RTB = mission commander's call. Previously our SHREW2 slide included automatic KIO, many of which didn't warrant an RTB, so they discussed in depth what these terms should mean.

Basically terminate is a training term, KIO is a safety of flight term, get safe then discuss, and NOT an automatic RTB.

 

[Pags]

I didn't mean that it would be a bad call, I just meant that -2 shouldn't be that far out of position to require it in the first place. But yes, I will defer to gators and others comments re: helo tacform......I have no doubt that comparatively speaking, our airframes make it much easier than yours. Which begs the question of why you would do it if it is so tasking for a wingman. For us, combat spread is pretty easy to manage and allows 1) better MCT's, and 2) a true level of visual mutual support for the section/division/etc. If whatever tacform position you all fly doesn't allow 1 and 2, then in IMHO, what is the value added? I'm simply just curious, as the helo world is pretty foreign to me.

Tacform is a lot more CRM intensive for us. If you're lead, all you need to do is look around to see where -2 is. I can't easily see past 9 or 3, so I depend on my gunners to give position calls for -2. While -2 may be in the correct position because -2's HAC is a LVL3, I need to train my nugget gunner to make the correct calls. There are a lot of standard calls that I need to hear from my gunners to build the pilots' SA. Even if a maneuver is flown perfectly, I as a HAC may choose to redo it to make sure my gunners are getting their calls right.

What can also end up happening is that since this an intro card, I can have two nugget copilots on the controls in both birds. Lead's nugget may make an incorrect call that -2's nugget pilot may not be ready for. Or maybe -2 is talking in their cockpit about something and missed the execute call. Terminate is a pretty free call.

When you have trained crews, it's not that tasking. These are intro cards that are designed to teach maneuvers to both pilots and gunners who have never flown one day tacform flight prior to their LVL 2 cards.

 

[MIDNJAC]

Rog, that makes sense. In our world, terminate is generally used to signify the end of training objectives for a local engagement (ie "terminate east/west group", etc). KIO would be reserved for safety of flight/bingo/stop the entire engagement. For us, a wingman going blind or heinously out of position is normally just mitigated real-time with altitude deconfliction and flow heading and he/she gets to suffer the consequences as everything sucks much more at that point....to include probably having to re-fly the event if it keeps happening. Basically for us, going blind just isn't an option, so you task shed everything else as needed to stay in position. Sounds like a similar thing, just the mechanics for doing it are a bit different.

 

[phrogpilot73]

No, it wouldn't. Our squadron specifically addressed these terms. Terminate is to complete a maneuver and move on to the next thing (ie: for training, we're done with TAC turns or we're done with gun patterns "Terminate, rolling out 270", let's terminate this portion and move onto the next thing).

KIO is to STOP all training (or if on a mission, stop whatever dynamic maneuver caused the SOF issue), for a safety of flight issue (ie: you can't see wing), get to a safe flight regime, ensure altitude/pos separation, figure out what went wrong, re-establish whatever you were doing, or discuss intentions from there. KIO =/= RTB. RTB = mission commander's call. Previously our SHREW2 slide included automatic KIO, many of which didn't warrant an RTB, so they discussed in depth what these terms should mean.

Basically terminate is a training term, KIO is a safety of flight term, get safe then discuss, and NOT an automatic RTB.

Let's just clarify that is YOUR squadron's SOP. Multi-Service Brevity Codes define "Knock it Off" as "Cease all air combat maneuvers / attacks / activities / exercises (training use only)." The CH-46E ANTTP defines "Knock it Off" as "Command used to immediately cease all training and proceed as briefed or return to base. All players must acknowledge." The USMC Assault Support TACSOP defines "Knock it Off" as "Cease the entire evolution; all players must acknowledge."

Your squadron may define it that way, and I don't know how TACAIR in the USMC defines it. In the Rotary Wing world - "Terminate" equals stop doing what we're doing (for whatever reason), "Knock it Off" means we're going home.

 

[Recovering LSO]

It's different. We can't see anywhere near as well as pointy-nose aircraft.

Just to stir the pot a little bit... Having flown up front in a Romeo a handful of times and having spent entirely too much time in a Prowler - Your vis is better from the front of a 60

 

[Pags]

Rog, that makes sense. In our world, terminate is generally used to signify the end of training objectives for a local engagement (ie "terminate east/west group", etc). KIO would be reserved for safety of flight/bingo/stop the entire engagement. For us, a wingman going blind or heinously out of position is normally just mitigated real-time with altitude deconfliction and flow heading and he/she gets to suffer the consequences as everything sucks much more at that point....to include probably having to re-fly the event if it keeps happening. Basically for us, going blind just isn't an option, so you task shed everything else as needed to stay in position. Sounds like a similar thing, just the mechanics for doing it are a bit different.

Oh, I see. You were just confused by "terminate" usage.

I'll caveat this by saying that it's been two years since I've flown tacform, but I was always taught that, like Phrogpilot73 said, that TERMINATE=stop a particular maneuver. This can be used due to someone not being ready, improper terminology, poor set up, etc. KNOCK IT OFF is used to end a flight due to a gross safety of flight violation. If you think you came really close to dying or maybe peed a little, that's the time to call KIO. KIO ends the flight and everyone goes home. You're allowed to confirm that someone meant KIO and not TERMINATE, but after that it's safety of flight only calls until you're safe on deck and then everyone gets together in the debrief to figure out how they almost killed each other.

 

[Harrier Dude]

You guys make it sound so dramatic to call Knock It Off.

To us (evidently everybody who's not a USN chopper dude) it's not a huge deal unless somebody screams it over the radio or something.

It's a normal, expected call near the end of the flight as somebody calls joker fuel. No big whoop.

Now, if you fuck it up and call KIO when you meant Terminate on an LFE.......that's going to hurt in the debrief. Poor form.

 

[phrogpilot73]

You guys make it sound so dramatic to call Knock It Off.

To us (evidently everybody who's not a USN chopper dude) it's not a huge deal unless somebody screams it over the radio or something.

It's a normal, expected call near the end of the flight as somebody calls joker fuel. No big whoop.

Now, if you fuck it up and call KIO when you meant Terminate on an LFE.......that's going to hurt in the debrief. Poor form.

It is rather dramatic, because we only use it for an egregious safety of flight issue. One so egregious that it made whoever called it feel like it was time to head back to the ready room to debrief.

Every other time (even if it's at the end of the mission) we still call terminate.

 

[Harrier Dude]

It is rather dramatic, because we only use it for an egregious safety of flight issue. One so egregious that it made whoever called it feel like it was time to head back to the ready room to debrief.

Every other time (even if it's at the end of the mission) we still call terminate.

So is this a RW v FW thing? I thought it was just Navy helos that make a big deal out of it. Somebody earlier (Marine RW .......thought it was you) explained it the way we (TACAIR) use it.

That led me to believe it was just a -60 thing.

 

[phrogpilot73]

So is this a RW v FW thing? I thought it was just Navy helos that make a big deal out of it. Somebody earlier (Marine RW .......thought it was you) explained it the way we (TACAIR) use it.

That led me to believe it was just a -60 thing.

Think about it, would "Radio Free Phrog" REALLY be all tactical-like and call Knock it off because the day's over? Those calls are more along the lines of "Dude, are we done yet?" or "Have you reached all the training objectives?" or "Let's hiaku before this crap weather rolls in." or "I've gotta shit. Speed it up."

Knock it off is generally reserved for safety of flight stuff that causes us to head home.