Service member being an idiot

[sardaddy]

Not without NJP.

A command does not need to impose NJP to impose a curfew on a US service member in the US. You can have a curfew imposed in training while in the US as per my original example. You can have liberty on a ship expire at a certain time even when in port in the US. Your command could tell everyone to come into the base or station and pitch a tent and that is where you will be sitting at 2000 tonight and where you will be living for the next week.

It is totally legal to do any of that in the US to US service members. It would be ill advised as morale certainly wouldn't improve but it is legal. I am only pointing out the falsehood of the comment that "You can't impose a curfew on US citizens on US soil. It isn't legal."

Remember you are in the military not your average citizen. Your CO could tell you to put a cot in your office and live there until xxx job is done. Again, probably not the best way to win friends and influence people, but it can be done legally.

But now to your average citizen. There are curfews imposed by cities on youth all over the country. They are US citizens on US soil. Professional sports teams have curfews. Again, they are US citizens on US soil.

I am certainly not supporting all of the curfews imposed but yes, a curfew can be imposed on US service members in the US without NJP.

 

[Brett327]

A command does not need to impose NJP to impose a curfew on a US service member in the US. You can have a curfew imposed in training while in the US as per my original example. You can have liberty on a ship expire at a certain time even when in port in the US. Your command could tell everyone to come into the base or station and pitch a tent and that is where you will be sitting at 2000 tonight and where you will be living for the next week.

It is totally legal to do any of that in the US to US service members. It would be ill advised as morale certainly wouldn't improve but it is legal. I am only pointing out the falsehood of the comment that "You can't impose a curfew on US citizens on US soil. It isn't legal."

Remember you are in the military not your average citizen. Your CO could tell you to put a cot in your office and live there until xxx job is done. Again, probably not the best way to win friends and influence people, but it can be done legally.

But now to your average citizen. There are curfews imposed by cities on youth all over the country. They are US citizens on US soil. Professional sports teams have curfews. Again, they are US citizens on US soil.

I am certainly not supporting all of the curfews imposed but yes, a curfew can be imposed on US service members in the US without NJP.

You've outlined several caveats - exceptions that prove the rule. Training commands - exception. Liberty expiring on a ship INCONUS, not so much (unless you're getting underway soon) I have personal experience with this one and the legality issue was successfully argued in this case.

As for US citizens, curfews are imposed on minors all the time, but not on adults unless there is some kind of extremis like a natural disaster or mass unrest. Pro sports teams may have curfews, but as a condition of employment, not something that the cops or legal system would enforce - apples and oranges.

Bottom line, commander's do have some ability to restrict liberty INCONUS, but not in the broad way you suggest. A commander can NOT issue a curfew INCONUS. A Commander can not arbitrarily limit liberty without either due process or meeting some of the other caveats discussed above. My CO could not decide tomorrow on a whim that everyone in my command had to be back on base (or back in their homes) by X hour. Not a lawful order. We saw an example of this recently in San Diego where the MAG CO tried to do just that, then had to back peddal.

References A
Ref B

 

[RobLyman]

It can certainly happen stateside.
Reservists allege mistreatment during Iraq prep

We went through the same thing at the same location a month later.

 

[Brett327]

It can certainly happen stateside.
Reservists allege mistreatment during Iraq prep

We went through the same thing at the same location a month later.

Probably borderline, depending on the facts, training environment, etc. Important distinction though: I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that it isn't legal.

 

[Flash]

It can certainly happen stateside.
Reservists allege mistreatment during Iraq prep

We went through the same thing at the same location a month later.

Well, it is the Army.......nothing more needs to be said.

 

[helolumpy]

During Katrina, I was told that the JTF Commander had issued General Order #1. I had an Army Colonel ask me if I knew what that meant.
My response was an Ensign salute and "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission?"

 

[Swanee]

During Katrina, I was told that the JTF Commander had issued General Order #1. I had an Army Colonel ask me if I knew what that meant.
My response was an Ensign salute and "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission?"

Take charge of this post and all gov property in view?


Crap, the motard is flowing strong in my veins right now.

 

[Spekkio]

You've outlined several caveats - exceptions that prove the rule. Training commands - exception. Liberty expiring on a ship INCONUS, not so much (unless you're getting underway soon) I have personal experience with this one and the legality issue was successfully argued in this case.

As for US citizens, curfews are imposed on minors all the time, but not on adults unless there is some kind of extremis like a natural disaster or mass unrest. Pro sports teams may have curfews, but as a condition of employment, not something that the cops or legal system would enforce - apples and oranges.

Bottom line, commander's do have some ability to restrict liberty INCONUS, but not in the broad way you suggest. A commander can NOT issue a curfew INCONUS. A Commander can not arbitrarily limit liberty without either due process or meeting some of the other caveats discussed above. My CO could not decide tomorrow on a whim that everyone in my command had to be back on base (or back in their homes) by X hour. Not a lawful order. We saw an example of this recently in San Diego where the MAG CO tried to do just that, then had to back peddal.

References A
Ref B

I think the general distinction is curfew to your ship or unit vs curfew to your residence. Saying all hands must be onboard by 2200 for a 0900 underway the next day or have to be in the barracks by 2200 to be up for training at 0500 is different than saying all hands must be home by 2200. One is duty related, the other isn't.

 

[Brett327]

I think the general distinction is curfew to your ship or unit vs curfew to your residence. Saying all hands must be onboard by 2200 for a 0900 underway the next day or have to be in the barracks by 2200 to be up for training at 0500 is different than saying all hands must be home by 2200. One is duty related, the other isn't.

Correct, thus the distinction.

 

[BACONATOR]

Not for everyone.

Yeah, I just meant my old command, ON Guam. Not dets in 7f.

 

[RobLyman]

Correct, thus the distinction.

The problem is, there isn't always that distinction. In our case and the one I linked to, our unit was training for a month and a half, with training that ranged from GMT to land nav, to medevac operations. Show time was sometimes early in the morning and sometimes not until after noon. The curfew and restrictions had nothing to do with the type or timing of the training.

We not only were on the restrictions listed, but also could not wear civilian clothing. This was all in an attempt to keep us "Guard" guys out of trouble. The AD guys had no such restrictons.

So yes, the restrictions happen stateside and they happen for the same reasons that they happen overseas (Japan). I am not saying it is legal. Just that it DOES happen.

 

[Renegade One]

During Katrina, I was told that the JTF Commander had issued General Order #1. I had an Army Colonel ask me if I knew what that meant.
My response was an Ensign salute and "It's better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission?"

IS there one standard "GO #1"? I always thought GOs were just numbered sequentially in the order they were issued by the command in question. The JTF CDR for Katrina Ops could have had any number of other things on his/her mind...no personal firearms, etc.

That said, when you say GO1 without any more context, I think most people harken back to CENTCOM GO1 about "no drinking in Theater", or however it's actually worded...and issued way back in...what...1990 or '91? But still in effect I gather, with some exceptions. When I was in SWA, I was told that folks assigned to the USMTM in SA could drink to their heart's content, since they didn't report to CENTCOM. They got their booze the "old fashioned way"...via the AMEMB's diplomatic deliveries of Class VI supplies. And, of course, you could always go to Bahrain on occasion...

Always thought Foster's made the most palatable non-alcoholic beer, by the way...

 

[scoolbubba]

Crap...GRENADE!...(thought to self: I'm gonna take one for the team...)

Lots of understandable frustration and "sea lawyer" comments here...and I totally get it. Mass punishment of the innocent totally sucks.

Now...what would/could YOU do (or recommend) if you were (and some day MAY be...) the brow-beaten 3-Star or whatever in charge of all US troops on foreign soil who continue to rape, pillage and plunder our allies or host nationals (or fellow US Cits), despite all of your best efforts to treat everyone like an individual adult?

Truly...the "individual accountability" thing ain't working...unless you recommend throwing out the SOFA protections and just let foreign courts do what they want with your troops. Don't think that's going to sell. So...what else?

You smart, educated, right-minded leaders who know better are all living in a world populated more numerically by "young, dumb and full of come" teenagers or worse. It's as much your problem to solve as it is that of senior leaders. Truly...if you have an idea...tell someone.

I always wondered how well bringing back the lash, keelhauling, stocks, and hanging people from yardarms would work.

 

[BusyBee604]

I always wondered how well bringing back the lash, keelhauling, stocks, and hanging people from yardarms would work.

Didn't work out to well for Captain Bligh - on the Bounty, or in the Oz penal colony?

BzB

 

[Spekkio]

Crap...GRENADE!...(thought to self: I'm gonna take one for the team...)

Lots of understandable frustration and "sea lawyer" comments here...and I totally get it. Mass punishment of the innocent totally sucks.

Now...what would/could YOU do (or recommend) if you were (and some day MAY be...) the brow-beaten 3-Star or whatever in charge of all US troops on foreign soil who continue to rape, pillage and plunder our allies or host nationals (or fellow US Cits), despite all of your best efforts to treat everyone like an individual adult?

Truly...the "individual accountability" thing ain't working...unless you recommend throwing out the SOFA protections and just let foreign courts do what they want with your troops. Don't think that's going to sell. So...what else?

You smart, educated, right-minded leaders who know better are all living in a world populated more numerically by "young, dumb and full of come" teenagers or worse. It's as much your problem to solve as it is that of senior leaders. Truly...if you have an idea...tell someone.

I have an idea... why don't we figure out how these guys got through the screening process, and adjust accordingly.

We have to keep in mind that the percentage of young guys doing this is very small. "Our servicemembers" aren't raping and pillaging locals, a few bad apples are. The question is, how do they compare to the behavior of employees for other large companies? If the military hires more future felons, we should adjust. We are past the days where we need to take anyone with a pulse to meet operational manning requirements for any branch. But the military still bottom feeds for some of its enlisted personnel, from socially awkward college grads who can't land a job because their resume ends at "BA in Business Administration - 2.99 GPA" to guys who lied about drug history until they become an unplanned loss. I don't know why we still accept these types of people when supposedly every rating is meeting their quotas and then some. If the corporate world doesn't trust them to answer phone calls and type on spreadsheets, why should Uncle Sam trust them with weapons and classified information?

You are never going to prevent a young, arrogant teenager with no regard for rules from breaking the law. Only solution is don't hire them.