USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[Hotdogs]

From the new Commandant.
New Commandant Berger Sheds 38-Amphib Requirement in Quest to Modernize USMC for High-End Fight

“I do not believe joint forcible entry operations (JFEO) are irrelevant or an operational anachronism; however, we must acknowledge that different approaches are required given the proliferation of anti-access/area denial (A2AD) threat capabilities in mutually contested spaces. Visions of a massed naval armada nine nautical miles off-shore in the South China Sea preparing to launch the landing force in swarms of ACVs, LCUs, and LCACs are impractical and unreasonable,” he wrote.

https://news.usni.org/2019/07/18/ne...-modernize-usmc-for-high-end-fight#more-68131

I’ll be more impressed when I see actual solutions to these problems. Right now, we’ve just conceded the playing field without a plan on why we’re still relevant. Lastly none of it is relevant until the Navy can sustain a ship building and maintenance plan that supports its own deployments - let alone ours. Right now that is not the case. I wonder if the crux of this news is based off of the Navy’s funding issues or an actual doctrinal shift.

 

[Randy Daytona]

I’ll be more impressed when I see actual solutions to these problems. Right now, we’ve just conceded the playing field without a plan on why we’re still relevant. Lastly none of it is relevant until the Navy can sustain a ship building and maintenance plan that supports its own deployments - let alone ours. Right now that is not the case. I wonder if the crux of this news is based off of the Navy’s funding issues or an actual doctrinal shift.

The 38th Commandant's guidance is getting rave reviews. Some highlights from the paper include:
I MEF is Focus of Main Effort
III MEF looking more to the IndoPacific vice the Middle East
The Lightening Carrier LHA concept might be in play
Using the HIMAR system throughout the Pacific, from islands and possibly ships
Getting away from the cookie-cutter 3 ship ARG to a any number of different vessels to spread out the force rather than concentrate it in a few highly visible targets.

It is a good read.

https://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Portal...g Guidance_2019.pdf?ver=2019-07-16-200152-700

Sacred Cows Die As Marine Commandant Changes Course On Amphibs
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/sacred-cows-die-as-marine-commandant-changes-course-on-amphibs/

 

[azguy]

This is a huge deal. And the next natural step; the Navy has already divested itself of the amphibious capability of the America-class with removal of the well-deck.

Probably some butt-hurt Amphib guys out there today but oh well. I, for one, would love to see a HIMARS bolted onto a DDG!

 

[Pags]

This is a huge deal. And the next natural step; the Navy has already divested itself of the amphibious capability of the America-class with removal of the well-deck.

Probably some butt-hurt Amphib guys out there today but oh well. I, for one, would love to see a HIMARS bolted onto a DDG!

Only the first two of the America Class, America and Tripoli, will have no well deck. Bougainville will have a well deck.

 

[azguy]

Only the first two of the America Class, America and Tripoli, will have no well deck. Bougainville will have a well deck.

I think it's becoming clear that the well-deck is going out of vogue. In fact, I'd say that traditional amphibious landings and ship/shore movements are on the outs as well. We'll see how the Gen Berger's policy affects future shipbuilding. The tradeoffs have been discussed ad-nauseam on here (I think that well-deck costs the MAGTF a few divisions of F-35s).

 

[ChuckMK23]

This!!!!!

If provided the opportunity to secure additional modernization dollars in exchange for force structure, I am prepared to do so.

 

[Hotdogs]

The 38th Commandant's guidance is getting rave reviews. Some highlights from the paper include:
I MEF is Focus of Main Effort
III MEF looking more to the IndoPacific vice the Middle East
The Lightening Carrier LHA concept might be in play
Using the HIMAR system throughout the Pacific, from islands and possibly ships
Getting away from the cookie-cutter 3 ship ARG to a any number of different vessels to spread out the force rather than concentrate it in a few highly visible targets.

It is a good read.

https://www.hqmc.marines.mil/Portals/142/Docs/ 38th Commandant's Planning Guidance_2019.pdf?ver=2019-07-16-200152-700

Sacred Cows Die As Marine Commandant Changes Course On Amphibs
https://breakingdefense.com/2019/07/sacred-cows-die-as-marine-commandant-changes-course-on-amphibs/

Yeah you’re about two weeks behind the news cycle. The CPG has been making the rounds around the Corps for a little bit now. MEF alignment is an interesting comment, and I’d be curious to see how those forces line up with COCOM needs. We’ve been doing distributed Ops with L-Class ships for awhile now. The only thing that would be different would be breaking up the work up cycles with disaggregated forces. Nothing earth shattering. Marines on other than L-Class ships would be new and probably worthwhile.

We have some where around 2-3 batteries of HIMARs in the entire Corps. No where near what would be needed to support regular deployment cycles. How’s that force structure going to look? Are we going to whole sale replace 777s with a GPS guided system now? How are we going to move large quantities of material and rolling stock if the need arises?

LHA concept is neat, but we’re talking about 30 jets and maybe a couple Ospreys. Where we going to park the rest of the ACE? On what ships? Do they even deploy at all? Also, this won’t happen for the next decade because we don’t even have the aircraft produced and we can’t maintain the aircraft we have right now.

Lots of cool flashy things, and I’m genuinely interested to see how it plays out. Given politics and the slow budget cycles in the Pentagon, I’d be surprised if we saw any significant change (aside from deployment structure and cycles) in the next 3-5 years.

 

[Randy Daytona]

Only the first two of the America Class, America and Tripoli, will have no well deck. Bougainville will have a well deck.

It will have a reduced well deck and reduced vehicle storage but maintain all of the hangar space of the America. Good article from The Drive detailing the differences between the LHD's, the first 2 of the America class and the Bougainville. The shipbuilders have re-arranged the island to fit more aircraft on top and vastly increased the radar as well.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ult-ship-will-almost-be-in-a-class-of-its-own

I put this out earlier, but it is a good review of the capabilities.

Comparative specifications between LHD-8 | LHA-7 | LHA-8
Length overall (ft) - 844 | 844 | 844
Beam - 106 |106 | 106
Full load displacement - 41,772 | 43,745 | 43,329
Aviation Support (ft²) - 31,559 | 47,284 | 38,049
Cargo fuel, JP-5 (gal) - 585,000 | 1,330,000 | 585,000
Well Deck LCAC Capacity - 3 | 0 | 2
Hangar area (ft²) - 18,745 | 28,142 | 28,142
Vehicle stowage area (ft²) - 28,645 | 18,911 | 16,011

 

[Jim123]

Still don't understand why we went against our own designation system and didn't call those two ships LPH.

 

[BarryD]

Still don't understand why we went against our own designation system and didn't call those two ships LPH.

But we decide to call LCSs past like 37 FF. (Confused shrug)

 

[IKE]

Still don't understand why we went against our own designation system and didn't call those two ships LPH.

Just a guess, but could be related to congressional authorizations. The same way the Super Hornet was basically a new jet, but we weren't allowed to make a new jet, so we called it an "upgrade."

 

[Jim123]

Dollars to donuts I'd guess that you're right- it's probably because of dollars.

 

[nittany03]

Dollars to donuts I'd guess that you're right- it's probably because of dollars.

Yeah, I can't see people making those kind of decisions based on donuts either.

 

[Jim123]

Yeah, I can't see people making those kind of decisions based on donuts either.

You're giving our politicians and procurement system a lot of credit...

 

[Randy Daytona]

A longer article from The Drive concerning the new Commandant and possible changes to the Gator Navy.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...m-the-corps-by-giving-up-big-amphibious-ships