USN Showdown between Super Hornet and F-35

[Randy Daytona]

SAR helo is on your picture. There's on one Spot 4 and one folded and stuffed by the forward garage. Where do the MEU's V-22s go in this concept? And what of the three bird SARDET?

AEW V-22 is just a pretty picture from the BD office. VARS is not a current operational capability.

So I think you'd have to see an LHD/A working closely with the CVN to make use of their AEW, AW, and tanking capabilities.

I think you missed the top sketch which is another 7 F-35's in the hangar. That's 15 F-35's on the deck and another 7 below for nearly 2 dozen. You could cut back a few of the F-35's and leave room for 4-6 V-22's - although I think it much more likely the V-22's will be onboard the accompanying San Antonio class LPD. As for the V-22 tanker, it is coming. The AEW V-22 is a proposal that does not seem that far-fetched as it is a modification to the basic airframe. I would surmise that both of these tilt-rotor derivatives would be studied not just by the US but also by anyone else operating JSF's off of a carrier (i.e., Japan.)

The LHA/LPD could sail with the CVN, but due to the significant difference in speed, I would assume they would keep them separate. A combo of 2 LHA's / 2 LPD's could push you up to 40+ F-35's...





Here is a good article comparing the current LHD's, the new (2) America class LHA's (LHA-6,7 no well deck) and the follow-on LHA Bougainville (LHA-8 which has a well deck.)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ult-ship-will-almost-be-in-a-class-of-its-own

Comparative specifications between LHD-8 | LHA-7 | LHA-8
Length overall (ft) - 844 | 844 | 844
Beam - 106 |106 | 106
Full load displacement - 41,772 | 43,745 | 43,329
Aviation Support (ft²) - 31,559 | 47,284 | 38,049
Cargo fuel, JP-5 (gal) - 585,000 | 1,330,000 | 585,000
Well Deck LCAC Capacity - 3 | 0 | 2
Hangar area (ft²) - 18,745 | 28,142 | 28,142
Vehicle stowage area (ft²) - 28,645 | 18,911 | 16,011

 

[azguy]

There's a whole lot of F-35 Kool-Aid being served up by LM and people in the program office. Right now, the USAF seems to have the most realistic view of what the platform can and cannot do since they've been operating it the longest.

Interested if any UNCLAS discussion of their general thoughts.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

I think you missed the top sketch which is another 7 F-35's in the hangar. That's 15 F-35's on the deck and another 7 below for nearly 2 dozen. You could cut back a few of the F-35's and leave room for 4-6 V-22's - although I think it much more likely the V-22's will be onboard the accompanying San Antonio class LPD. As for the V-22 tanker, it is coming. The AEW V-22 is a proposal that does not seem that far-fetched as it is a modification to the basic airframe. I would surmise that both of these tilt-rotor derivatives would be studied not just by the US but also by anyone else operating JSF's off of a carrier (i.e., Japan.)

The LHA/LPD could sail with the CVN, but due to the significant difference in speed, I would assume they would keep them separate. A combo of 2 LHA's / 2 LPD's could push you up to 40+ F-35's...

View attachment 21802

View attachment 21803

Here is a good article comparing the current LHD's, the new (2) America class LHA's (LHA-6,7 no well deck) and the follow-on LHA Bougainville (LHA-8 which has a well deck.)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ult-ship-will-almost-be-in-a-class-of-its-own

Comparative specifications between LHD-8 | LHA-7 | LHA-8
Length overall (ft) - 844 | 844 | 844
Beam - 106 |106 | 106
Full load displacement - 41,772 | 43,745 | 43,329
Aviation Support (ft²) - 31,559 | 47,284 | 38,049
Cargo fuel, JP-5 (gal) - 585,000 | 1,330,000 | 585,000
Well Deck LCAC Capacity - 3 | 0 | 2
Hangar area (ft²) - 18,745 | 28,142 | 28,142
Vehicle stowage area (ft²) - 28,645 | 18,911 | 16,011

I don’t think stuffing seven F-35’s in the hangar would be terribly useful. In my (limited) boat experience, the broke ass aircraft banished to the hangar got cannibalized and never really moved, much less in a way that would help an air plan where every spot on deck is occupied by other F-35’s if you want a clear deck.

 

[Flash]

For aerial refueling and AEW, you will see variants of the V-22 which the Marine Corps is already flying. Phrogdriver can probably tell us more about the future of these variants. Moreover, I would suspect that the V-22 and the planeguard helo would operate on the LPD - Marines are very familiar with split-ARG operations thus maximizing even more space for JSF's on the big deck gator.

In what world are you living in that all these cotton candy dreams and unicorn farts get funded? Not only that but do you really think the Marines are going to fund, man and equip an entirely new capability in which they have no institutional experience? And then do it well it enough that it actually works? This ain't hanging a few Hellfires off the wing of a cargo aircraft, this is an entirely new capability that would take well over $100 million to get a capable system that works well. And all this after a longtime 'core' USMC aviation capability, EA, just died after a more than 60 year history.

Even then it still leaves unanswered just what requirement all this capability would be meeting. At worst it would undercut the reasoning and funding for CVN's for nothing but a loss in capability when we need it more than ever, at best it takes a LHD/LHA's away from their actual reason for being. Just like a Japanese CVL this would be an expensive capability wandering around in search of a real purpose.

View attachment 21801

I'm sure when the F-32 is finally fielded the EV-22 will make a wonderful companion, even for the Royal Navy.

 

[Pags]

I think you missed the top sketch which is another 7 F-35's in the hangar. That's 15 F-35's on the deck and another 7 below for nearly 2 dozen. You could cut back a few of the F-35's and leave room for 4-6 V-22's - although I think it much more likely the V-22's will be onboard the accompanying San Antonio class LPD. As for the V-22 tanker, it is coming. The AEW V-22 is a proposal that does not seem that far-fetched as it is a modification to the basic airframe. I would surmise that both of these tilt-rotor derivatives would be studied not just by the US but also by anyone else operating JSF's off of a carrier (i.e., Japan.)

The LHA/LPD could sail with the CVN, but due to the significant difference in speed, I would assume they would keep them separate. A combo of 2 LHA's / 2 LPD's could push you up to 40+ F-35's...

View attachment 21802

View attachment 21803

Here is a good article comparing the current LHD's, the new (2) America class LHA's (LHA-6,7 no well deck) and the follow-on LHA Bougainville (LHA-8 which has a well deck.)

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ult-ship-will-almost-be-in-a-class-of-its-own

Comparative specifications between LHD-8 | LHA-7 | LHA-8
Length overall (ft) - 844 | 844 | 844
Beam - 106 |106 | 106
Full load displacement - 41,772 | 43,745 | 43,329
Aviation Support (ft²) - 31,559 | 47,284 | 38,049
Cargo fuel, JP-5 (gal) - 585,000 | 1,330,000 | 585,000
Well Deck LCAC Capacity - 3 | 0 | 2
Hangar area (ft²) - 18,745 | 28,142 | 28,142
Vehicle stowage area (ft²) - 28,645 | 18,911 | 16,011

Nope, I didnt miss the F-35s in the barn. I think you missed the detail of how you get those jets in the fight because as @Treetop Flyer pointed out, the barn is usually packed full of broken jets. That neat little drawing also conveniently leaves out all the other stuff the MEU will bring with it and all the SE and other crap that spills over into the hangar. As to you saying the V-22s will live on the LPD where will the HMLA and HMM live? This concept pretty much locks out the rest of the MAGTFery that usually goes with an LHD. Which is fine if all you want to do is play with F-35s. But as soon as you want to move some Marines or poop out some LCACs you start losing out on your mini-carrier.

If you think VARS and an AEW V-22 will work then you're smoking crack. Again, where will you put them and how will VMM feel about not doing Assault Support with those assets?

I think the Marines are hoping MUX will fix all these problems by being all the things but there's no shortage of technical risk in their neat OV-1 slides.

Can an LHD function as a mini-carrier? As others have pointed out, not on its own.

 

[Hair Warrior]

One way to make it (sorta) work is to put two LHA/LHDs in the same ESG. One has a normal air complement, mostly rotary wing; the other has more F-35Bs than usual, but still has some rotary wing assets too.

And, even if the Marines are able to do all of that, it still doesn’t have the same capability + capacity as a typical CSG. It’s still a fairy tale stopgap that doesn’t have a well-rehearsed past record as a CSG does.

 

[UInavy]

Someone has looked into this:

Future Aircraft Carrier Options

As the U.S. Navy's legacy aircraft carrier force begins reaching expected service life, what are the possible alternatives to potentially replace it? And what are the potential implications for procurement cost and effectiveness?

www.rand.org

 

[SynixMan]

One way to make it (sorta) work is to put two LHA/LHDs in the same ESG. One has a normal air complement, mostly rotary wing; the other has more F-35Bs than usual, but still has some rotary wing assets too.

And, even if the Marines are able to do all of that, it still doesn’t have the same capability + capacity as a typical CSG. It’s still a fairy tale stopgap that doesn’t have a well-rehearsed past record as a CSG does.

Is this a joke? I honestly can't tell.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Nope, I didnt miss the F-35s in the barn. I think you missed the detail of how you get those jets in the fight because as @Treetop Flyer pointed out, the barn is usually packed full of broken jets. That neat little drawing also conveniently leaves out all the other stuff the MEU will bring with it and all the SE and other crap that spills over into the hangar. As to you saying the V-22s will live on the LPD where will the HMLA and HMM live? This concept pretty much locks out the rest of the MAGTFery that usually goes with an LHD. Which is fine if all you want to do is play with F-35s. But as soon as you want to move some Marines or poop out some LCACs you start losing out on your mini-carrier.

If you think VARS and an AEW V-22 will work then you're smoking crack. Again, where will you put them and how will VMM feel about not doing Assault Support with those assets?

I think the Marines are hoping MUX will fix all these problems by being all the things but there's no shortage of technical risk in their neat OV-1 slides.

Can an LHD function as a mini-carrier? As others have pointed out, not on its own.

As soon as air wings learn from 2d MarDiv, they’ll have plenty of time to have Osprey guys learn tanking and AEW. Also Ospreys will have rockets. VMMGRFAW squadrons will learn their new trades after field day, PT, and the first formation of the day. Lots of time to do more with less, plus IRON DISCIPLINE

 

[Pags]

One way to make it (sorta) work is to put two LHA/LHDs in the same ESG. One has a normal air complement, mostly rotary wing; the other has more F-35Bs than usual, but still has some rotary wing assets too.

And, even if the Marines are able to do all of that, it still doesn’t have the same capability + capacity as a typical CSG. It’s still a fairy tale stopgap that doesn’t have a well-rehearsed past record as a CSG does.

Just stop.

 

[UInavy]

As soon as air wings learn from 2d MarDiv, they’ll have plenty of time to have Osprey guys learn tanking and AEW. Also Ospreys will have rockets. VMMGRFAW squadrons will learn their new trades after field day, PT, and the first formation of the day. Lots of time to do more with less, plus IRON DISCIPLINE
View attachment 21805

When do you all eat breakfast? Does the v-22 just airdrop some MREs on the pt field?

 

[scoolbubba]

When do you all eat breakfast? Does the v-22 just airdrop some MREs on the pt field?

Food is a crutch. All you need is discipline and a properly police called dirt patch outside your shitty barracks room.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

When do you all eat breakfast? Does the v-22 just airdrop some MREs on the pt field?

Standby on whether breakfast is authorized. Division hasn’t explicitly authorized breakfast in the schedule, and we will not deviate from the IRONCLAD DISCIPLINE and IRONCLAD CENTRALIZED MICROMANAGEMENT that is the hallmark of our beloved corps.

I will add that change one to this order will also include the singing of the Marines Hymn (now mandatory singing) until morale improves.

 

[Treetop Flyer]

In what world are you living in that all these cotton candy dreams and unicorn farts get funded? Not only that but do you really think the Marines are going to fund, man and equip an entirely new capability in which they have no institutional experience? And then do it well it enough that it actually works? This ain't hanging a few Hellfires off the wing of a cargo aircraft, this is an entirely new capability that would take well over $100 million to get a capable system that works well. And all this after a longtime 'core' USMC aviation capability, EA, just died after a more than 60 year history.

Even then it still leaves unanswered just what requirement all this capability would be meeting. At worst it would undercut the reasoning and funding for CVN's for nothing but a loss in capability when we need it more than ever, at best it takes a LHD/LHA's away from their actual reason for being. Just like a Japanese CVL this would be an expensive capability wandering around in search of a real purpose.



I'm sure when the F-32 is finally fielded the EV-22 will make a wonderful companion, even for the Royal Navy.

The Marines will cooperate with the COD community to create economies of scale and paradigm shifting synergies. Cross deck training within the Blue/Green Team will allow CODPlopters to learn AEW and tanking from Marine plopter dudes while also sharing knowledge of satellite based SPECWAR insertion and over the horizon CSAR. An Osprey can do a self escort buddy tank night delivery of a SEAL team into a terrorist compound from a remote shore base, then return with mail and fresh lettuce directly to every ship in the strike group, while providing early warning all the way.

 

[Griz882]

When do you all eat breakfast? Does the v-22 just airdrop some MREs on the pt field?

Looks kind of "back to the future" to me. As a grunt in the 2nd MARDIV (ca. 1983) the routine on this memo was pretty much our routine! Breakfast? Wash your stinky ass after PT and go get it...but be ready for formation. The same for dinner. It wasn't on the schedule, but I knew where to get it and when it was served.

I am still, to this day, a fast eater because of the Corps.