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Sounds like change is coming...

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bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
...if females can't serve on subs...

There are too many logistical variables which preclude females from serving aboard submarines.

Remember, it was not long ago that females were not allowed to serve aboard other types of Naval vessels.
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
Not to answer questions for someone else, but to jump wildly into the fray...
What does having a high school vice college degree change?
Is that a serious question? Well there are two basic premises you can go with; a person with a college degree either comes from money or has a minimal semblance of maturity enough to handle paying for it.

So you think it is a choice, not a thing that someone is born with? Just trying to understand your thinking.
Well that's an easy question. Homosexual, sexual orientation, and all the terms associated with them relate to, in pure essence, sexuality; which is to say that it is about sex. Yes, unless it is rape, you can choose who you have sex with.


This debate seems really unnecessary. If "allowing gays to serve openly" is your goal, then you are saying that it will be okay to bring up sexual habits in the workplace. "Hi, I'm Airman Joe Schmuckatelly, and last night I had sex with my boyfriend."

Now that's obviously an exaggeration for effect, but if someone were to say that every day, there's not really much you could do about it if you were in charge of them. That doesn't mean I agree with the current situation, but certainly the whole "allowing gays to serve openly" is absolutely not professional, because it will mean sexuality openly allowed in the workplace.

I think a good compromise would be to do exactly what many of you are saying, but incorrectly in context so far. If someone finds out, then nobody should care, but openly discussing sexual orientation shouldn't generally be tolerated, except with regards to SAVI cases, family support, and so forth.
 

HAL Pilot

Well-Known Member
None
Contributor
When I was on submarines, I never "openly" talked about my sex life because it was nobody's business and I never "openly" declared that I was, in fact, a heterosexual, because it was nobody's business.
That's because we all know the majority of submariners are gay. This will just let them serve openly and remove the stigma of being the "boat's bitch"...... :sleep_125
 

bubblehead

Registered Member
Contributor
That's because we all know the majority of submariners are gay. This will just let them serve openly and remove the stigma of being the "boat's bitch"...... :sleep_125

Well, at least my nuts aren't draggin on the ground :icon_tong:D
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
If "allowing gays to serve openly" is your goal, then you are saying that it will be okay to bring up sexual habits in the workplace. "Hi, I'm Airman Joe Schmuckatelly, and last night I had sex with my boyfriend."
Huh? How does that follow - at ALL - from your first premise?
 

HercDriver

Idiots w/boats = job security
pilot
Super Moderator
Not to answer questions for someone else, but to jump wildly into the fray...
Is that a serious question? Well there are two basic premises you can go with; a person with a college degree either comes from money or has a minimal semblance of maturity enough to handle paying for it.
:confused: Picklesuit brought up the point of having: "...a large number of guys with high school educations who don't really desire to spend 6 months at sea feeling the way we all do during a piss-test.
I was asking what dif that made...so you probably shouldn't be answering for him.
Well that's an easy question. Homosexual, sexual orientation, and all the terms associated with them relate to, in pure essence, sexuality; which is to say that it is about sex. Yes, unless it is rape, you can choose who you have sex with.
Aaaah, so being attracted to a member of your gender or the opposite gender has nothing to do with it. So some gal could be attracted to and or in love with Angelina Jolie, but as long as she never slept with another woman she would be "straight".

This debate seems really unnecessary. If "allowing gays to serve openly" is your goal, then you are saying that it will be okay to bring up sexual habits in the workplace. "Hi, I'm Airman Joe Schmuckatelly, and last night I had sex with my boyfriend."
How is allowing gays to serve openly bringing up sexual habits? Because you are straight, does it mean that everything you do is bringing up your sexual habits? I have a few gay/lesbian friends and neighbors. None of them talking about sex. Just like I don't talk about sex with my spouse.
Now that's obviously an exaggeration for effect, but if someone were to say that every day, there's not really much you could do about it if you were in charge of them. That doesn't mean I agree with the current situation, but certainly the whole "allowing gays to serve openly" is absolutely not professional, because it will mean sexuality openly allowed in the workplace.
Have you been to the fleet? You can do plenty. I've had to watch numerous sexual harrassement training videos every year, and a form of inappropriate behaviour is bringing up your sexual exploits that makes others uncomfortable. You could certainly tell them to knock it off (whether gay or straight), then book 'em if they don't comply.
 

SkywardET

Contrarian
Yeah, I shouldn't have jumped wildly into the fray, but since I'm here...

Scorch2, I'm confused by your confusion; please clarify.

Herc, I wasn't really answering for Picklesuit's elitist view, but answering your general question with a general answer. The context kind of makes it confusing, but basically there is a difference between college and high school educations.

I'm not saying that attraction has nothing to do with it, but I didn't bring up attraction or love because those are not the same thing as sexuality. My best friend is a fellow male, and I love him like a brother. Doesn't make me gay. As to your example, if she hasn't slept with anyone, that would make her abstinant, wouldn't it?

Maybe it's just a matter of definitions; maybe that's where the schism is between you and me. How exactly can someone be "openly gay" without being open about their sexual habits?

What does it mean for someone to be "openly gay" and serve in the military? How exactly will this be defined? What guarantees would be granted to someone who is "openly gay" and serves in the military? If someone does tell you to stop talking about your sexuality, would that violate your right to serve as "openly gay" or not? What exactly would define the acceptable boundry? I'm just curious where the boundry is between being "openly gay" and discussions of sexual behaviour.

To answer your other question, yes I have been to the fleet, thanks. As a rule, I don't usually report people for unacceptable behaviour; I try to correct the ones I can and let the other ones I can't correct go, exclusively because they occur over my head. Filing a report against a senior can be pretty dangerous.


I honestly don't care if there are gays in the military. I really just don't want to hear about it. I think that's pretty agreeable to all, is it not?
 

a2b2c3

Mmmm Poundcake
pilot
Contributor
My best friend is a fellow male, and I love him like a brother. Doesn't make me gay. As to your example, if she hasn't slept with anyone, that would make her abstinant, wouldn't it?

In terms of not having sex yes, but if she was attracted to only women she would still be a lesbian regardless of is she was having sex or not.

Maybe it's just a matter of definitions; maybe that's where the schism is between you and me. How exactly can someone be "openly gay" without being open about their sexual habits?

By not talking about their sexual habits. Are you required to talk about all the women you sleep with to be straight?


I honestly don't care if there are gays in the military. I really just don't want to hear about it. I think that's pretty agreeable to all, is it not?

It is agreeable. Honestly there are lots of people who don't want to hear about anyone's sexual conquests, regardless of their sexual orientation. Be gay, be straight, who cares. I just don't need to hear about who/what you did over the weekend. That's what it means to be openly gay/straight. Be who you are. If you need to brag about it, that's when it goes to far and is annoying for everyone.
 

Amall

Member
I think the real issue that was touched earlier in the thread is that Obama/The Government cannot reverse social issue simply by issuing a decree or getting rid of a rule or law. Even if some individuals in the military are generally accepting, Military culture, in general, is not accepting of the gay lifestyle, stereotypes and all.

What types of issues will occur in the fleet with openly gay individuals? Do we want to deal with those issues right now with the GWOT? Maybe, because some service branches are hurting for recruits. Maybe not, because it would involve a whole other level of legal, sensitivity training, etc, etc., etc.,.....in essence taking eyes or attention away from current military obligations out in the field. I'm not sure what the answer or solution is.

Also, CA (of all places liberal) voted against gay marriage in November. So is it appropriate to get rid of the don't ask don't tell policy in an extremely conservative environment? I'm not sure the military is the place to start turning the tides. There will most definitely be discord not only in the military, but nationwide.
 

squorch2

he will die without safety brief
pilot
The president can unilaterally set military policy - something about being commander-in-chief or something - and there is precedent...
 

CommodoreMid

Whateva! I do what I want!
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
I think the real issue that was touched earlier in the thread is that Obama/The Government cannot reverse social issue simply by issuing a decree or getting rid of a rule or law. Even if some individuals in the military are generally accepting, Military culture, in general, is not accepting of the gay lifestyle, stereotypes and all.

What types of issues will occur in the fleet with openly gay individuals? Do we want to deal with those issues right now with the GWOT? Maybe, because some service branches are hurting for recruits. Maybe not, because it would involve a whole other level of legal, sensitivity training, etc, etc., etc.,.....in essence taking eyes or attention away from current military obligations out in the field. I'm not sure what the answer or solution is.

Also, CA (of all places liberal) voted against gay marriage in November. So is it appropriate to get rid of the don't ask don't tell policy in an extremely conservative environment? I'm not sure the military is the place to start turning the tides. There will most definitely be discord not only in the military, but nationwide.

Not necessarily true. I did some research on this about a year ago for a class and studies indicate that about 2/3 of military members either support or don't care if gays are in the military. Only a minority are opposed to integration.
 

phrogpilot73

Well-Known Member
This debate seems really unnecessary.
I agree. If the President Elect issues an executive order, or if Congress signs a law - you had better say "Aye, aye Sir." and carry on.

If "allowing gays to serve openly" is your goal, then you are saying that it will be okay to bring up sexual habits in the workplace. "Hi, I'm Airman Joe Schmuckatelly, and last night I had sex with my boyfriend."
I'm not going to get into your very narrow view of homosexuality, however - you and I both know that homosexual men and women are currently serving. Imagine you could never again say "My wife and I went to the movies last night." or "My girlfriend and I went shopping for engagement rings." That's how they're currently serving.

They probably don't want to scream "Tony fucked me so hard in the poop chute last night I was hard for two hours!", more like they probably would like to be able to engage in the same conversations that we do - "I'm thinking about a civil union with Mike. Do you think I should get a prenup?"

Trust me, they don't all want to fuck you - I guarantee you're not that good looking.
 

picklesuit

Dirty Hinge
pilot
Contributor
Yeah, I shouldn't have jumped wildly into the fray, but since I'm here...

Scorch2, I'm confused by your confusion; please clarify.

Herc, I wasn't really answering for Picklesuit's elitist view, but answering your general question with a general answer. The context kind of makes it confusing, but basically there is a difference between college and high school educations.
http://pewforum.org/docs/?DocID=38

I think the graph speaks for itself, why I mentioned the education level of my enlisted shipmates. Nothing elitist, just fact. (I'm not saying that I am not elitist, that would be a lie...just saying my FACTS are not elitist)
 

zoomie08

Fast, Neat, Average...
I agree. If the President Elect issues an executive order, or if Congress signs a law - you had better say "Aye, aye Sir." and carry on.


I'm not going to get into your very narrow view of homosexuality, however - you and I both know that homosexual men and women are currently serving. Imagine you could never again say "My wife and I went to the movies last night." or "My girlfriend and I went shopping for engagement rings." That's how they're currently serving.

They probably don't want to scream "Tony fucked me so hard in the poop chute last night I was hard for two hours!", more like they probably would like to be able to engage in the same conversations that we do - "I'm thinking about a civil union with Mike. Do you think I should get a prenup?"

Trust me, they don't all want to fuck you - I guarantee you're not that good looking.


+1.

Exactly what needs to be said to anyone still bigoted enough to oppose an honest, hard working, intelligent person serving his country simply because his sexual preference is different than yours. Just ignorant.
 
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