Spekkio wants his weed...

[Spekkio]

I blame nuke school on my poor spelling; there are too many sentence fragments and double arrows involved.

I fear you have missed the point Spekkio. It isn't about the drugs or their effects on health. It is about the fact that someone who thinks breaking the law is ok, sometimes.

Yes, I think breaking the law is ok sometimes. I don't think someone is a horrible person if they speed on the road to keep up with traffic. I don't think someone is a bad person because they didn't use their blinker when shifting gears and changing lanes at the same time so they can maintain positive control of the wheel. I don't think someone needs to go to jail because their significant other performed oral sex (an act that is illegal in most states).

The spirit of the law is to maintain personal freedoms and safety, and that's what ultimately must be followed. Ultimately, between smoking weed and drinking alcohol, weed is the lesser of two evils. If you don't want to think about it beyond the fact that the law is the law and that's it, then I suppose there's no point to further discussion.

As far as catching a Sailor doing illegal drugs; we all sign an agreement promising not to do drugs when we join the military. No one forced anyone to do that, so I have no issues about taking action against such a case. I'm aware that our standard of conduct is supposed to be higher.

My reference to 60% was to show the trend that illicit drug use is not only rising, but also it is becoming the norm. It was also attempting to demonstrate that the image of people who have used/do use drugs being worthless junkies is just flat-out false. The Navy might be able to find enough aviators without granting drug waivers, but there are a lot of jobs to fill in the military. If you want to cut out 60% of possible applicants because they broke a law that would amount to getting the equivelent of a traffic ticket if caught, then manning issues are only going to get worse.

 

[bert]

My reference to 60% was to show the trend that illicit drug use is not only rising, but also it is becoming the norm.

But why do we care about the norm? Why would we settle for it?

 

[A4sForever]

.... I even recall A4sForever sharing (years ago) that he would smoke cigarettes while flying in the Navy ...

Since you're trying to make a point and using an example of my own vices & failings, I suppose I should respond and hopefully clarify ... and I'm not trying to dismiss your example, just explain.

Drugs or tobacco in the cockpit?? Do you really think it's the "same"?? Or anywhere near the "same" ... ?? While it may have been less than desirable in the case of tobacco, it was "normal" and most definitely tolerated up to and including Flag Officers, even in O2 mask communities. Same for the airlines. Sometimes the only thing that would keep you "awake" late at night in Marshal was a cigarette or a Coke while flying cyclic ops ... I am unaware of any pilot or wrench turner who was unable to "preform" the mission as a result of tobacco. But drugs ... ??? Or alcohol, for that matter ... ??

When I went through the TRACOM, probably 80% of the guys smoked -- it seemed as though all of my Instructors smoked. I guess that was "cultural" as most of the country smoked -- hell, even Ozzie & Harriet smoked -- and it was the same in the squadrons. A brief/debrief always included coffee and cigarettes. A stop at the Exchange would most always include the purchase of a carton of cigarettes. It slo-o-o--owly began to change as my time on ACDU progressed.

I QUIT smoking while on cruise. Why ... ??? Because I finally figured out it was hurting my night vision in the short run and it was killing me in the long run. I suppose you could make the stretch that I was "impairing" my abilities. No one told me to quit -- I just did it, going from a 2-3 pack a day, 10 year old "habit" -- to zero, literally overnight. It wasn't easy, it "hurt" for about a week, but then it was GONE and I haven't "slipped" once. Since then, cigarettes have not been a part of my life.

Some of you try to take a libertarian viewpoint (even one of my heroes -- Bill Buckley did) on the subject of drugs and I think it's a huge mistake. Drugs "are" cultural -- not necessarily a product of a culture and certainly not one I wish to partake in, either. You CHOOSE to take drugs and you CHOOSE to embark on a lifestyle culture that can go nowhere but DOWN.

So which came first?? The drug or the druggie?? The emptiness of a life impaired by drugs or the empty individual?? The low-life or the low-life effect(s) of taking drugs?? Drugs are not "high-brow" or high society, even though many "elites" indulge. Drugs ruin peoples lives, they are a resting place for the least common denominator in our society, and I do not wish to go there, myself. I have personally seen dreams & lives ruined by drug use/abuse (and don't tell me that people can "control it") and I am a firm believer that drugs are a bane on our country. Look at the crime stats for confirmation ...

I'm not tryin' to be philosophical nor tryin' to make excuses -- just tryin' to explain why where one seemed "O.K." (when it wasn't in reality), the other is patently, obviously -- "NOT O.K." ... but it does make one "curious" as to why some of you are trying to justify drug usage. Not you, BullGator ... just "some"...

Today, I hate cigarettes & cigarette smoke. I 'tolerate' 'em ... just don't like 'em.

Cigars ... ?? That's another question. But then, cigars take time ... and require a "mood", and they're not illegal, either.

 

[FlyinRock]

Uurahh Rahh
There are those who simply don't understand. I'll admit when I was in high school I submitted from peer pressure and curiosity that I smoked pot and it scared shit out of me with the seemingly total loss of control. That was in the very early 50's when it was surely the road to hell.
I still believe ANY drugs will warp anyones ability to respond at the level required. Had I not experienced it, how else could I qualify my positioin? WE can discuss sex all day long and argue the books point of view,but until we actually experience it, its all theory. Therein is the rub.
For myself, I have an extreme reaction to any pharmcuetical intake. Perhaps my body is talking to my brain? But how else could I know it aside from those who tell me not to do it? Doesn't matter if its aspirin or prescribed drugs.
There are times when too much coffee caused me to act weird.
There are also the times when exessive imbibing in adult beverage created similar?
In aviation, we are faced with very fast life or death decisions and any kind of outside influence can be the difference in living or dieing. How it turns out is a crap shoot. I'd prefer to be coherent, sober and reacting in a safe manner so when the final decision comes in, they'll say,..."No alcohol or drugs were found in the autopsy ..." or whatever.
I'm long past the "bullet proof" stage and hope I can influence those who follow me into that same era. Its a bitch to recognize that ...............
Merry Christmas
Rocky

 

[BullGator]

A4sForever: Yes sir. I agree with your stances on drugs effects of ruining people's lives and finances (e.g. addictions). I did not mean to use you as an example about the smoking pot debate or in any type of disrespect; I was trying to emphasize that rules/laws sometimes are broken by good men (not potheads or other drug-users, but things like speeding in a car or motorcycle), and wanted to throw in an anti-hippie reference.

I remember your story of your last ciggarette on a night mission while landing, and quiting cold turkey because of nicotin's negative eye-sight effect. I thought it was a great story for others (including driving at night in a car, and also being an addiction/vice) and was glad that you shared it.

 

[eddie]

So illegal drugs weed, heroin, etc. are wrong?

I thought they were just bad for you and a waste of time...

Is it wrong to get drunk now? Was it wrong during Prohibition, or just illegal?

 

[eddie]

Ultimately, between smoking weed and drinking alcohol, weed is the lesser of two evils. If you don't want to think about it beyond the fact that the law is the law and that's it, then I suppose there's no point to further discussion.

Second sentence = the discussion I am interested in.

First sentence = bullshit.

Are you saying that you are better off having one beer and driving rather than smoking a joint (fine having one or two puffs if we need to lower the dosage) and driving? No, I don't think you are. You are talking about serious abuse. You are talking about a doctor I know who wishes all of the alcoholics in the world had a weed problem instead because it theoretically would result in less death and violence.

Problem with this line of thinking (and yes, I'm putting words in your mouth, no thats not fair) is that once we are talking about abuse, its a whole different animal. It's all bad then.

Society accepts certain drugs on the basis that they can be dosed to a level with mild effects.

You go out a have a beer after work, it's as much about enjoying people's company as it is about "taking off the edge."

Guys who decide to smoke a bowl after a study session want to relax and obliterate their state of mind. The point of the activity, however, is to get high.

Now yeah, I'll give you one thing. Social drinking is kind of bullshit. There's a reason you went to the bar instead of the lemonade stand... BUT, I still can't see a dose by dose comparison of the two things.

 

[Spekkio]

Are you saying that you are better off having one beer and driving rather than smoking a joint (fine having one or two puffs if we need to lower the dosage) and driving? No, I don't think you are.

The impairment to driving felt by smoking a joint is less than having 2-3 beers. Additionally, the two drugs aren't even in the same category; alcohol is a depressant which slows motor skills, while marijuana is a very mild halucinagenic. I'll say it again: weed is a very mild drug.

Smoking a joint would not constitute abuse in my mind (unless you're calling it so simply because it's illegal). Abuse would be smoking a joint 3-4x a day multiple times a week.

 

[phrogdriver]

Second sentence = the discussion I am interested in.

First sentence = bullshit.

Are you saying that you are better off having one beer and driving rather than smoking a joint (fine having one or two puffs if we need to lower the dosage) and driving? No, I don't think you are. You are talking about serious abuse. You are talking about a doctor I know who wishes all of the alcoholics in the world had a weed problem instead because it theoretically would result in less death and violence.

Problem with this line of thinking (and yes, I'm putting words in your mouth, no thats not fair) is that once we are talking about abuse, its a whole different animal. It's all bad then.

Society accepts certain drugs on the basis that they can be dosed to a level with mild effects.

You go out a have a beer after work, it's as much about enjoying people's company as it is about "taking off the edge."

Guys who decide to smoke a bowl after a study session want to relax and obliterate their state of mind. The point of the activity, however, is to get high.

Now yeah, I'll give you one thing. Social drinking is kind of bullshit. There's a reason you went to the bar instead of the lemonade stand... BUT, I still can't see a dose by dose comparison of the two things.

Please.

I'll preface this by saying that I've never done any illegal drugs. Secondly, there is no place for illegal drugs in the military.

That said, you're assigning the worst possible motives to an activity you disapprove of (pot), while shrugging off the same factors in the activity you do approve of (alcohol). As you said, there's a reason you went to the bar and not a lemonade stand. They call alcohol a social lubricant for a reason. It is a mood-altering drug. One endorsed fully by society, but one nonetheless.

Some people drink a few beers by themselves, some people smoke a few joints by themselves. Some people drink in groups, some people smoke in groups. Same same.

They both impair judgment and performance. I don't want a drunk maintaining or flying an aircraft, nor do I want a stoner. Chronic overuse of either will result in permanent mental and/or physical damage. One practical problem is that a breathalyzer is a lot easier to administer than a urine sample, but that's a side issue.

The reason we don't tolerate pot in the military is that it's ILLEGAL. Obeying laws is an obligation of any citizen, and especially one in the military. That's a good enough reason for me not to do it, not that I think it would be up my alley anyway.

However, take away the law against it, and in my opinion, there would be no moral distinction between weed and alcohol. I still wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't really be any more concerned about someone else using pot vice alcohol.

Just my inner libertarian thinking.

 

[eddie]

The impairment to driving felt by smoking a joint is less than having 2-3 beers. Additionally, the two drugs aren't even in the same category; alcohol is a depressant which slows motor skills, while marijuana is a very mild halucinagenic. I'll say it again: weed is a very mild drug.

Smoking a joint would not constitute abuse in my mind (unless you're calling it so simply because it's illegal). Abuse would be smoking a joint 3-4x a day multiple times a week.

Sorry if I come off harsh. I'm just trying to push towards a reasoning why this stuff is illegal. I still feel a small doseage of marijuana is far more incapacitating than even 2-3 beers (PM if we like?). I wouldn't know what abuse of marijuana actually consists of. I believe that is illegal because any useage at all is (for better for worse) considered abusvie. Maybe abuse has nothing to do with it. After all, it isn't illegal to consume or posses enough alcohol to get fasinatingly shit-faced.

That's why I wanted to get to the heart of what is wrong.

 

[eddie]

However, take away the law against it, and in my opinion, there would be no moral distinction between weed and alcohol. I still wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't really be any more concerned about someone else using pot vice alcohol.

I agree. I'm just trying to get at the reasoning for why it is illegal. (I believe: social hang over and lack of test/ability/quantifiability of effects per doseage, as you point out, and as can been seen from the argument Spekkio are having about doseage.)

Didn't mean to come off like I was morally above anyone or anything; don't feel that way at all.

 

[Spekkio]

Sorry if I come off harsh. I'm just trying to push towards a reasoning why this stuff is illegal. I still feel a small doseage of marijuana is far more incapacitating than even 2-3 beers (PM if we like?). I wouldn't know what abuse of marijuana actually consists of. I believe that is illegal because any useage at all is (for better for worse) considered abusvie. Maybe abuse has nothing to do with it. After all, it isn't illegal to consume or posses enough alcohol to get fasinatingly shit-faced.

Why is weed illegal when alcohol is not? I believe it has more to do with perceived social stigma than anything else, as alcohol is far more dangerous in almost every aspect. I will produce more concrete references later, since I'm only on lunch now, unless you want to look it up yourself.

However, take away the law against it, and in my opinion, there would be no moral distinction between weed and alcohol.

Pretty much what I was trying to say. To add: there are a ton of people who drink before the age of 21, including plenty of middies at the boat school. To add further: getting intoxicated in public is illegal in many (if not most) areas, which means anyone that drinks at a bar and leaves at over the legal limit is violating the law.

 

[ea6bflyr]

Why is weed illegal when alcohol is not? I believe it has more to do with perceived social stigma than anything else, as alcohol is far more dangerous in almost every aspect.

Maybe society was influenced by this movie:

-ea6bflyr

 

[FlyinRock]

In all this thread, I have to confess I have known more than a few officers who either admitted to smoking pot currently, or in the past. I was even more startled to learn of pilots I had flown with for years in crop dusting that smoked pot on a regular basis. Then I hear of guys I have known for years who had been in rehab for either or drugs/alcohol.
Have I been living in a freaking dream world all these years?
Back in the 50's when I was a DI at MCRD I found a few recruits who had stashed pot in their gear and they disappeared. I don't condone it now nor did I then.
Yes I've been guilty of trying it and learned from the experience long before I entered the military or began flying. I don't want anything to do with those who feel dope is OK when they are impacting what it is I'm doing. I feel the same about anyone and alcohol. Don't try to fly with me in the same airspace if you are fucked up on either drugs or alcohol. I will not hesitate to take you out of the system.
Like A4, I smoked 2-3 packs a day until I realized I was just burning money! I did a smoking rehab program in '75 and haven't smoked since. I do drink adult beverage and have a pretty good idea of the effects and duration. Drugs is a whole different story and I avoid them like the plague.
I do recall using amphetimines for some long missions. I suspect that was condoned since we were issued them?

 

[Mumbles]

Smoking doobies is not always detrimental to your career.