Spice

[phrogpilot73]

Phrog - I'm waiving the Bullshit flag on this. Bad Sailors do bad things and break the rules everyday regardless of what their "morale" is. I have seen Sailors pushed to the limit in a bunch of different operating environments - but it has never been, nor will it ever be, an excuse to "get high."

I never said it was an excuse. However, I'm using personal anecdotes. This from my post:

MAYBE the morale is so in the shitter that they don't care anymore. For the guys that got caught smoking weed in the barracks - it was a shock for most of us. They weren't our typical 10%'ers. I honestly believe they were looking for an escape from what has become reality.

Was about two Marines in my squadron that no shit, were the rockstars. We're talking pro/cons of 4.7/4.8-ish. CDIs both. Never a single incident to indicate they were bad Marines. Jaws dropped when it happened. Jaws from SNCO's all the way to the CO. What happened when they were busted? They manned up and said, yes we fucked up. We're responsible for our actions. Didn't request admin sep boards, just took their hits like men.

To this day, I would trust them to work on my aircraft. They were that good.

So your argument is just that they're bad Marines. Got it. If you honestly think that you can't push a Sailor/Marine to the breaking point, then I think you're delusional.

BTW - Bath Salts are a real bitch for Big Navy right now - you can't test for it with a urinalysis.

There are other indicators. Trust me. I'd argue that I've probably seen more drug related shit in my squadron then anyone has seen since the 80's. Why?!? Guess we've got a squadron full of bad Marines (based on your metric).

 

[robav8r]

I never said it was an excuse. However, I'm using personal anecdotes. This from my post:

Was about two Marines in my squadron that no shit, were the rockstars. We're talking pro/cons of 4.7/4.8-ish. CDIs both. Never a single incident to indicate they were bad Marines. Jaws dropped when it happened. Jaws from SNCO's all the way to the CO. What happened when they were busted? They manned up and said, yes we fucked up. We're responsible for our actions. Didn't request admin sep boards, just took their hits like men.

To this day, I would trust them to work on my aircraft. They were that good.

So your argument is just that they're bad Marines. Got it. If you honestly think that you can't push a Sailor/Marine to the breaking point, then I think you're delusional.


There are other indicators. Trust me. I'd argue that I've probably seen more drug related shit in my squadron then anyone has seen since the 80's. Why?!? Guess we've got a squadron full of bad Marines (based on your metric).

I joined the Navy in 1981 - I'm familiar with the drug problem then, and now. Yes, you ARE saying it's an excuse. Really?, you would trust them to turn wrenches on YOUR A/C when they deliberately and knowingly abused a controlled substance? And, to your last point, OF COURSE we push our Sailors & Marines to their breaking point. We do it frequently, but are you really advocating that their "breaking point" justified their actions? Go ahead and try to sell that philosophy to the other Marines in your command that DIDN'T find a reason to get high.

I think you have a lot invested in these folks, and I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties here, but you can't ever advocate making bad decisions because of stress & pressure.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

Phrog - I'm waiving the Bullshit flag on this. Bad Sailors do bad things and break the rules everyday regardless of what their "morale" is. I have seen Sailors pushed to the limit in a bunch of different operating environments - but it has never been, nor will it ever be, an excuse to "get high." BTW - Bath Salts are a real bitch for Big Navy right now - you can't test for it with a urinalysis.

I have seen this a few times, back in the very early 90's during a bad shipyard period, life sucked for us, we had bad COC, a few times guys would go UA for just 2 or 3 days, then come back and admit to smoking pot, then urinalysis followed by them going away, not saying these guys were by any means the sharpest tools in the shed, in fact the ones I remember were more like a square piece of aluminum.

Given enough time they may have made some other bad decision down the road anyway.

 

[exNavyOffRec]

I joined the Navy in 1981 - I'm familiar with the drug problem then, and now. Yes, you ARE saying it's an excuse. Really?, you would trust them to turn wrenches on YOUR A/C when they deliberately and knowingly abused a controlled substance? And, to your last point, OF COURSE we push our Sailors & Marines to their breaking point. We do it frequently, but are you really advocating that their "breaking point" justified their actions? Go ahead and try to sell that philosophy to the other Marines in your command that DIDN'T find a reason to get high.

I think you have a lot invested in these folks, and I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties here, but you can't ever advocate making bad decisions because of stress & pressure.

My Nuke MM "A" school instructor talked about going to command parties in the early 80's and watching his DIVO and other members of his division take bong hits, this was before the zero tolerance.

 

[nittany03]

I think you have a lot invested in these folks, and I'm not trying to piss in your wheaties here, but you can't ever advocate making bad decisions because of stress & pressure.

Listen to his argument. He's not saying it's right. He's not advocating it. He's saying that a toxic command climate or flat-out bad breaks in life can psychologically break someone. I agree. He's not saying that those individuals should not bear the consequences of their actions; he's talking about causal factors. I wasn't there. I can't comment if he's right or not in his instance. But the argument bears considering. As has been said before, while Big Navy may never be wrong, there sure are times when it's short on being right. Sometimes a bunch of the shit which is always rolling downhill rolls down on one guy or girl's shoulders in particular. And sometimes it isn't Big Navy's fault, but one stupid decision which just snowballs into a world of shit. You never know where some people's breaking point is, or what's going to happen when they hit it. They show up, they do their job well (or average), and then the next thing you know they're shooting up to dull the pain or ending up in the hangar bay with a belt around their neck. Good leadership will catch some, but we're not perfect.

Why do you think this suicide awareness crap is floating around? Because sometimes our "suck it up" culture asks people to suck up more than they are psychologically able to do so. One PCS away from retirement and hurt yourself on the ski slope? Sorry, here's your med board. Dreamed about being in the Navy since you were 5? Uhh, yeah, about those promotion board results. Thanks for your service. Masted in "A" school for being a stupid teenager? Sorry, no PTS quota for you. Married your high school sweetheart before deployment? Well, that's almost a cliche.

No one is excusing illegal drug use, offing yourself, etc. But you'd be damned naive to expect that life, and military life in particular, may not drive a few people over the edge, and that we don't necessarily set ourselves up very well to catch it.

 

[lowflier03]

9 month deployments, back to back sea tours, ERB leading to a sudden abundance critical billets, do more with no money/parts, sub par senior leadership, refusal to accept logic and send people qualified in TMS to the right job, etc etc etc.
And the Navy wonders why we have an "Alcohol Problem," Spice, suicide, liberty incidents, etc. We have fucked ourselves in the ass because no one wants to stand up and do the right thing and say what needs to be said, and somehow "they" cant understand why an NKO powerpoint and a few grand thrown into a shitty movie arent fixing all of our problems....

 

[pourts]

Did you play that version or the full 46 minute one for your Marines? I feel like that 7 minute one pretty much hits all the important parts.

 

[KBayDog]

Did you play that version or the full 46 minute one for your Marines? I feel like that 7 minute one pretty much hits all the important parts.

Yeah, like why ride over the Imperial Dunes, when you can have a hell of a lot more fun chopperin' over the Dunes in the Chariot of the Gods...especially in those two sexy BuNos. (Oh wait - I already did. )

Semper Ride? Shenanigans... SEMPER PHLY!!

 

[phrogpilot73]

words...

You pretty much hit what I was saying.

Did you play that version or the full 46 minute one for your Marines? I feel like that 7 minute one pretty much hits all the important parts.

I had 1 hour for Motorcycle Safety, so I played the full movie and then spoke about the motorcycle club and the local courses/schools that we had available that the MAG would pay for.

 

[KBayDog]

...I played the full movie and then spoke about the motorcycle club and the local courses/schools that we had available that the MAG would pay for.

Must have been a short speech.

 

[Recovering LSO]

I think you have a lot invested in these folks

Yep.

but you can't ever advocate [justify?]making bad decisions because of stress & pressure.

Seriously? This happens every day with our Sailor and Marines....

 

[Renegade One]

(more)...sub par senior leadership…(more)

I am sick and fucking tired of this particular "repeating refrain". Unless you all want to call yourselves "sub-par leaders", of course…in which case I fucking WEEP for the future.

Hey…I've f#ck!ng GOT IT! Pressure…from everywhere…no more so than in your CO's Office…do more…do better…need better numbers…better readiness…your PFT scores SUCK…need more…need better…your deployment date has been moved up…yadda yadda yadda… GOT IT! Been there…done that…got the T-shirt.

Do any of you really, genuinely, HONESTLY think this is anything particularly new to you or your generation?

Sorry for the rant, but sometimes you guys (and gals…) just bring out the worst in me.

The first a$$#0!3 who tells me "Well, golly, R1, things have changed since your time"….has NO FUCKING IDEA of "my time", or what "we" endured, or the policy changes "we" had to implement/support, or…well, you get the idea. Actually, you probably don't have any idea. You think it was all "shirtless dog-tag volleyball" back in my day.

Go to work. BE a leader at your best level. Lead when and where you can do it most effectively. Help the higher echelon (Squadron CO?) lead better when and where you can. If you can do neither of those…just submit your next "feeder FITREP" as "NP" and be happy with whatever comes next.

This is called (in various communities/industries) "360 Leadership" or "Tough Love". It's all the same.

 

[ea6bflyr]

The first a$$#0!3 who tells me "Well, golly, R1, things have changed since your time"….has NO FUCKING IDEA of "my time", or what "we" endured, or the policy changes "we" had to implement/support, or…well, you get the idea. Actually, you probably don't have any idea. You think it was all "shirtless dog-tag volleyball" back in my day.

Some of us were there through the generations and we DO have an idea.

Go to work. BE a leader at your best level. Lead when and where you can do it most effectively. Help the higher echelon (Squadron CO?) lead better when and where you can. If you can do neither of those…just submit your next "feeder FITREP" as "NP" and be happy with whatever comes next.

So basically "suck it up" and do what you can regardless of leadership? That's a great way to get an NP (or P).

R1, you really have to calm down. Not everything on AW is a personal attack on you or the time you served.

-ea6bflyr

 

[ea6bflyr]

Anyone else's want some?

 

[Renegade One]

Not everything on AW is a personal attack on you or the time you served.

-ea6bflyr

Concur…but I get that kind of response far too often. Nor should folks always devolve to some mindless attack on "sub-par leadership" from "somewhere above". That's a very, very cheap cop-out…from a lot of folks who ought to be working the problem from inside the lifelines.

To give them their due, I'm sure many are. Probably another "silent majority".