split-NFO-Helo? 2P? Black Hole? What?

[Pcola04/30]

The longest pilot pipeline is the jet pipeline. I started primary Feb 5th, 07 and will wing again July 08 which is 18 months plus the 6 weeks of API takes that pipeline to 20 months API to winging.
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I would disagree. From what I have seen (couple pilot classes on either side of me) the E2/C2 track is noticably longer. The average E2/C2 pilot is lucky to make it to the fleet prior to putting on LT!! All the jet guys I was in K-rock with are already in their fleet squadrons and have been for some time, and the E2/C2 guys are still at the RAG.

 

[Gatordev]

Olden Tymes indeed. Can you shed any light on how/why the procedure was changed? Because way back in the far olden tymes, the offset was to help get "clean" wind over the deck.

I think the primary reason was the deck space. W/ the introduction of the MKIII, more room was needed on the stern of the FFGs in order to provide room for a) the straightening gear and b) the tail of the helo in relation to the aft capstan. The helo has to sit relatively straight on the deck in order to straighten, so on the FLT II FFGs, they built a step down for the poop deck and put the capstan down there which allowed the tail of the helo to sit over the stern w/ out worrying about smacking it. I'm guessing since they used the same approach on one class, they did the same for the other two (the DDs and CGs are essentially the same plan so I call that one class and they made the FLT II DDGs the same way).

The FLT I DDGs still have the offset approach for everyone. Many other air-capable ships still have the offset approach and even the FFG/DDG/CGs use it for non-LAMPS helos (H-3 for sure, don't know about the -60S).

 

[squorch2]

Sierras land with mainmounts in wheelboxes on FFG/DDG/CG. It's a requirement due to the lack of space between the tailweel and the nets. On all but DDG block Is, the wheelboxes are setup fore/aft.

On bigger air-capable ships, you just put your mainmounts in the circle with the airframe aligned with the line-up line, which is usually offset.

 

[illinijoe05]

Somehow every other tailhook community manages to make do with one pilot and a FO, and I find it hard to believe that helos (or Hawkeyes, for that matter) are really so different. It's a matter of training, quals, mixing your crew's experience levels, and community attitude, not the number of anchors on your wings.

I'm just sayin'.

The difference is you carry no pax and have ejection seats. If the pilot balls it up you can still get out. In the helo/e2/cod communites there is no getting out, that why you NEED two guys up there capable of not just flying but also landing the aircraft at night in the worst case senario, beecause if you do put it in the water those 25 pax your carrying are not going to know how to get out, they never went through the dunker. So really attitude has nothing to do with it, safey has more.

 

[HAL Pilot]

I would disagree. From what I have seen (couple pilot classes on either side of me) the E2/C2 track is noticably longer. The average E2/C2 pilot is lucky to make it to the fleet prior to putting on LT!! All the jet guys I was in K-rock with are already in their fleet squadrons and have been for some time, and the E2/C2 guys are still at the RAG.

FLYPAY is talking about the time to wings, not time to RAG completion.

 

[MasterBates]

To give a best guesstimate on how long E2C2 takes to wing, I am probably going through as fast as possible, having been prof-advanced through a lot of flights.

Primary- 4 months (6-7 normally)
Intermediate- 3 months (4-5 normal)
Advanced- 8-10 months

Absolute shortest for E2 from Primary to Wings would be about 15 months. 21-22 months is probably more normal. And this is with no waits in pools.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Can anyone imagine doing a left wheel pinnacle landing from the right seat? That is certainly a possibility with the 60S with doors on both sides.

Ahhhhh...what???????

 

[MasterBates]

Pinnacle landing, one wheeled.

 

[FLYTPAY]

Pinnacle landing, one wheeled.

 

[HeloBubba]

Pinnacle landing, one wheeled.

Notice he is using an Army bird as his example. Also notice that there are no grunts loading or unloading. So just a photo op?

 

[Uncle Fester]

This is all kind of getting at what I was saying to begin with - that the helo community wouldn't be comfortable putting a FO in the left seat unless he/she was capable of handling a lot of flying duties. Which would entail so much stick time for the FO at the HTs and/or RAG that there wouldn't be much advantage in it over just having two pilots.

 

[Gatordev]

This is all kind of getting at what I was saying to begin with - that the helo community wouldn't be comfortable putting a FO in the left seat unless he/she was capable of handling a lot of flying duties. Which would entail so much stick time for the FO at the HTs and/or RAG that there wouldn't be much advantage in it over just having two pilots.

So what you're saying is that we've spent three pages arguing about how much we agree w/ one another? Stupid internet...

 

[Steeljaw Scribe]

"The Hawkeye world has the same catch-22 attitude with FOs in the right seat; they don't train FOs to be copilots because FOs aren't trained to be copilots."

At one time (many years ago) we tried an experiment on both coasts with NFO Co-pilots (VAw-122 and -126 on the East coast, -114 and -116, I think, on the West). Criteria was one had to be a second tour mission cdr, go through the FRS syllabus and get NATOPS qual'd by the FRS. It was supposed to be for day/VMC off the ship, but I went for 5 traps before I had my first day VMC right-seat trap (lots of marginal pinkies...). First flight was something like this

In VAW-126, our take (and ditto in VAW-122) was along the lines that it was kind of useful, though not so for the original reason (spelling pilots on the flight sched rotation for around the clock ops conducted over the span of weeks/months) - you ended up wearing out the senior MC's in the process and it was hard hewing to the day/VMC deal (see above). The big plus was it pulled the NFO's mindset out of the b/end of the airplane and gave them a better understanding of it's mechanics (especially engines) if they weren't in maintenance for their ground jobs, and something of an appreciation for the mental gymnastics the front end had to got through w/o a scope in front of them. All those fun things like playing marshall for HCR's (Hummer Controlled Recoveries), strike for EMCON ops, etc. It also gave you an appreciation for a triple cycle w/o a working autopilot...

Nevertheless, as much as the squadrons seemed to like it - the "Powers That Be" at the wing hated it and the program died not long afterwards (ca. 89/90 IIRC).

 

[dodge]

Curious, were you literally controlling the aircraft for these approaches or was the FRS syllabus directed towards FO copilots being a second set of eyes/ears/SA, similar to some backseater duties. i'd see learning to go straight and level as one thing and then learning to shoot an approach to the back of the boat without previous pilot training as taxing.

interesting either way.

 

[FastMover]

Is it still a pinnacle if both back wheels are down?