Stupid Questions about Naval Aviation (Part 3)

[HAL Pilot]

Or it could be that if there are two ways to do something and one was is easy and makes sense, VP will always choose door number 2.

Maybe now but not that way in the 80s through mid-90s. The only place we really went overboard then was NATOPS trivia. Otherwise it was more laid back in VP then in the tacair and HS squadrons I observed while on Theodore Roosevelt. Second hand from my tacair and helo friends from AOCS, training command,etc. they said in many ways VP was more laid back too. It was a fun place to be and there were always a lot more people wanting VP out of flight school than there were slots. We were also the first community to have DH boards because too damn many of us stayed in.

 

[insanebikerboy]

Not calling you a liar, Brett, but the majority of "alone and unafraid" situations that I saw unfold while I was on Lincoln were the direct result of a decision made by the O-5 and above crowd. The amount of MM that CAG, DCAG, and the CSG have on what goes on inside the cockpit is like night and day compared to what I am used to.
Generally, when faced with a decision about weather, fuel, where to land and how to get the mission done, I act first and back brief when I land. I never saw that in my time at the boat. I have spent a lot of hours up in the tower watching things unfold, and there was always someone on the boat calling the shots.
Like I said before, I completely understand that TACAMO is a far cry from carrying weapons over unfriendly territory, so I get why it is the way it is.

Summed up nicely I think. The mentality I observed (both helo and tacair) around the carrier was "keep the plane flyable and then call the rep to see what to do next".

 

[Flash]

I would say that's pretty standard in the TACAIR world.

.....The amount of MM that CAG, DCAG, and the CSG have on what goes on inside the cockpit is like night and day compared to what I am used to........I completely understand that TACAMO is a far cry from carrying weapons over unfriendly territory, so I get why it is the way it is.

For stuff like cross-country's and some dets there is significant independence and latitude given to a TACAIR crew but operationally there is no comparison between how TACAIR and VQ and even VP fly. There is enormous independence given to the MC's and AC's in VQ, who were usually first-tour JOs in VQ(P), when doing operational missions usually only with the direction to get the mission done. A large part of the reason for that independence was that you were the only asset around of your type and the only one who knew how to get your job done.

There are good reasons for the different ways of doing business but each bestow considerable responsibility on junior folks very quickly, it is just an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

 

[phrogdriver]

, it is just an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

"It's an entirely different kind of flying. Altogether."

[/IMG]

 

[pilot_man]

For stuff like cross-country's and some dets there is significant independence and latitude given to a TACAIR crew but operationally there is no comparison between how TACAIR and VQ and even VP fly. There is enormous independence given to the MC's and AC's in VQ, who were usually first-tour JOs in VQ(P), when doing operational missions usually only with the direction to get the mission done. A large part of the reason for that independence was that you were the only asset around of your type and the only one who knew how to get your job done.

There are good reasons for the different ways of doing business but each bestow considerable responsibility on junior folks very quickly, it is just an entirely different kind of flying altogether.

I'm going to spell this out: You Have Got To Be Shitting Me. Your basing your entire view of TACAIR on a Admin portion of our flights. On a 6.5-7 hour mission, we spend 20 minutes or so under control of the Captain. Sure, he and CAG are going to tell me if I can launch, or need to divert, but neither of them are on the radio when I'm releasing weapons in anger. Once we leave the CVOA, we make all the same decisions as everyone else. Like should I continue into this weather, should I divert since my probe is broken, and should I end that dudes life down there. You know, all the same decisions...

 

[BusyBee604]

I'm going to spell this out: You Have Got To Be Shitting Me. Your basing your entire view of TACAIR on a Admin portion of our flights. On a 6.5-7 hour mission, we spend 20 minutes or so under control of the Captain. Sure, he and CAG are going to tell me if I can launch, or need to divert, but neither of them are on the radio when I'm releasing weapons in anger. Once we leave the CVOA, we make all the same decisions as everyone else. Like should I continue into this weather, should I divert since my probe is broken, and should I end that dudes life down there. You know, all the same decisions...

And so it was back in the day. Once we rendezvoused as a section/division mission, or a mini/major Alpha strike, once we called "KILO" (rdvz'd & departing on course), we were on our own. Until we checked in with 'das boot' upon return. We were under control of mainly our flight strike leaders, and occasionally FACs, or perhaps a SAR commander for RESCAP assist. Pretty much autonomous!
BzB

 

[Brett327]

Not calling you a liar, Brett, but the majority of "alone and unafraid" situations that I saw unfold while I was on Lincoln were the direct result of a decision made by the O-5 and above crowd. The amount of MM that CAG, DCAG, and the CSG have on what goes on inside the cockpit is like night and day compared to what I am used to.
Generally, when faced with a decision about weather, fuel, where to land and how to get the mission done, I act first and back brief when I land. I never saw that in my time at the boat. I have spent a lot of hours up in the tower watching things unfold, and there was always someone on the boat calling the shots.
Like I said before, I completely understand that TACAMO is a far cry from carrying weapons over unfriendly territory, so I get why it is the way it is.

We're talking about taking a jet on the road, not flying around the boat. I understand that might be more mission oriented for your TMS and more of a fun XC in the TACAIR world, but the principle of having a bunch of JOs with a couple jets without any adult supervision is the same. If your only experience with TACAIR is launching them off the pointy end, or observing from PRI-FLY, then I would suggest you have an incomplete picture.

 

[wlawr005]

I'm going to spell this out: You Have Got To Be Shitting Me. Your basing your entire view of TACAIR on a Admin portion of our flights. On a 6.5-7 hour mission, we spend 20 minutes or so under control of the Captain. Sure, he and CAG are going to tell me if I can launch, or need to divert, but neither of them are on the radio when I'm releasing weapons in anger. Once we leave the CVOA, we make all the same decisions as everyone else. Like should I continue into this weather, should I divert since my probe is broken, and should I end that dudes life down there. You know, all the same decisions...

Nah man, having 13 guys in the back to determine whether or not the runway is too icy in Minot is EXACTLY like trying to get your 9-line while rolling in on a CAS...at night...on NVGs...in the Wx...thank god the Air Boss is right there to help you.

 

[scoolbubba]

Who hid the ruler since our last semi monthly dick measuring contest?

 

[Treetop Flyer]

Nah man, having 13 guys in the back to determine whether or not the runway is too icy in Minot is EXACTLY like trying to get your 9-line while rolling in on a CAS...at night...on NVGs...in the Wx...thank god the Air Boss is right there to help you.

VT-7. L-O-L

 

[scoolbubba]

VT-7. L-O-L

I had some good lolz over that, too.

 

[MasterBates]

I've never heard CAG or Boss dictating anything in country.. Unless CAG was in the guys section.

Granted, I was a hummer clown, but we monitored a lot of radio chatter amongst the VFA/ VAQ crowd

 

[Flash]

I'm going to spell this out: You Have Got To Be Shitting Me. Your basing your entire view of TACAIR on a Admin portion of our flights. On a 6.5-7 hour mission, we spend 20 minutes or so under control of the Captain. Sure, he and CAG are going to tell me if I can launch, or need to divert, but neither of them are on the radio when I'm releasing weapons in anger. Once we leave the CVOA, we make all the same decisions as everyone else. Like should I continue into this weather, should I divert since my probe is broken, and should I end that dudes life down there. You know, all the same decisions...

Don't get your panties in a twist, I've flown missions in both and I always had a lot more autonomy to complete a mission in an EP-3 than I ever did in a Prowler. Like I said, different kinds of flying.....ultimately I would consider releasing weapons the ultimate responsibility in Naval Aviation and VQ doesn't even touch that.

Nah man, having 13 guys in the back to determine whether or not the runway is too icy in Minot is EXACTLY like trying to get your 9-line while rolling in on a CAS...at night...on NVGs...in the Wx...thank god the Air Boss is right there to help you.

There you were, in VT!

 

[pilot_man]

Don't get your panties in a twist, I've flown missions in both and I always had a lot more autonomy to complete a mission in an EP-3 than I ever did in a Prowler. Like I said, different kinds of flying.....ultimately I would consider releasing weapons the ultimate responsibility in Naval Aviation and VQ doesn't even touch that.

There you were, in VT!

Panties aren't twisted. I just find it pretty humorous to watch the fat kids talk about autonomy in TACAIR when their view of it is through a soda straw. It's like me watching a TACAMO crew get their brief together in base ops, and then make comparisons to how they and TACAIR function operationally. I find that people should stick to what they know, but they don't. You want to talk about your community and how you operate, fine. Don't make comparisons to communities that you don't understand.

TACAIR allows LTs to make life and death decisions, all on their own. If a JTAC needs warheads on foreheads, then it's the two of them who decide if the weapon should be released. Sounds pretty autonomous to me.

 

[phrogpilot73]

TACAIR allows LTs to make life and death decisions, all on their own. If a JTAC needs warheads on foreheads, then it's the two of them who decide if the weapon should be released. Sounds pretty autonomous to me.

Sometimes that JTAC is just a Sergeant... But, to caveat - it's not just the two of you alone all the time making the decisions. The FSCC/FFCC may get involved when it comes to mission approval.