I am actually enjoying the civilized exchange between Flash and Phrog....don't encourage them to stop now...
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Sully retires ...
- Thread starter Catmando
- Start date
I am actually enjoying the civilized exchange between Flash and Phrog....don't encourage them to stop now...
I was just under 3 years retired when this incident happened. While none of my P-3 & EP-3 buds still on active duty could go into details, every one of them thought the plane should have been ditched to safe guard the secrets. Most held had SCI access and all said we suffered major harm as a result of this incident. These were all O-4, O-5 & O-6 types. That was how we were trained and that is how we thought. I still think this way. Shane Osborn might have done a service to his crew, but he did not do a service to his country. To quote Spock, "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few."Flash said:
(OK - I'll admit I like Star Trek, but just the original, not the newer crap.)
Ditching to bailing out to landing (in whatever order) sounds like they didn't stick to a decision...
Sorry to threadjack but i thought this video appropriate for the comment.
[video=hulu;4U5KOErz3-1eqjxjTdUv-Q]http://www.hulu.com/watch/71495/onion-news-network-trekkies-bash-new-star-trek-film-as-fun-watchable[/video]
Community opinion seems to have changed since you and the guys you work with left. Don't expect a landing under those circumstances, regardless of the benefit to the crew, to be repeated...
It exists to support the 'warfighter', as well as doing national missions. Sounds like you talked to a lot of people who have never been a VQ'r they were a cryppie, many of whom thought it should be their plaything alone (yes, I remember your VQ NFO/IW). It's almost like an Infantry Officer telling you how to fly a Phrog.
Gotta fall back on the 'ol NFO bashing, shows how weak your arguments are. Either way, it is more time that you or PSW have.
I worked with a few Phrog guys in my last job, and surprisingly enough they can read! But the after-action/damage report ain't out for mass circulation, unless you cracked a three-ring binder I doubt you read it.
Part of my larger point.
Most of the guys I know at work are post-JO or post DH guys who are still in, most with very current experience (within the last year or two). Skews quite a bit to VQ but we have a few VP as well. And yet, they still feel largely the same way.
I would disagree with this statement. You find a marked difference in decision making with the 70s/80s era P3 drivers on this subject, vice today. And with our generation, you don't find many supporters of that landing. As Propstop mentioned, what is getting taught during our MC boards NOW? Definitely not a landing.
I agree there is a pretty big generational difference between those of the Cold War era and those of our generation, but I am surprised at your assertion of those who largely disagree today (maybe it is the hinge in you....
). Again, almost every one of my contemporaries and those I work with today agree with the decision, especially those who have a great deal of knowledge of what was lost and know what happened. I am not sure if it is a VP/VQ distinction but that attitude has stayed very steady among those who were in the squadron at the time and the guys I talk to today from VQ, with a couple of notable exceptions. A majority of the VP guys I work with also agree/agreed, though it is much less overwhelming. Being about as close to the problem as you could have gotten without being there or in the squadron, I still emphatically agree with the decision the crew made. To explain some of my dismissiveness with respect to some who would claim that it the guys would have ridden it in or that it cost us billions, especially Cryppies, is that they rarely have a full picture of not only what was on the plane but what was lost. The Cryppies I have worked with through the years have often held a narrow view of things, not only of what the mission of the EP-3 was but often towards intelligence and operations in general, thinking that their piece of the pie. There are and were a number who 'get it' better than others, but overall I think the narrow view towards what was lost and what the cost was makes for a bit of skewed view of the entire incident and it's aftermath.
To tie it all back in to Sully, the end state was the same and everyone survived. I still firmly believe that nothing on that EP-3 was worth a single life at the time. And from what little I know, and after having talked to several airline pilots to include A320 pilots, Capt Sully did a fine job when he ditched in the Hudson. What better outcome could have there been? I can't see one.
It seems to me it hinges on whether or not they were able to jettison/destroy all the crypto gear prior to landing. If not, they should have ditched. If so, landing was the right decision. And it would have been "worth the lives of the crew" to keep that type of gear from falling into Chinese hands.
Well, well, well .... we've finally got Flash over on the 'Commercial Aviation' side of the house w/ a semi-cogent, not-so-self-righteous comment ... will small wonders never cease ... ???
But NO, Flash ... you still can't be an airline pilot.
...and lack of hot stews.......no thanks.
Not true everywhere, especially international! The TACA crews bring some of the finest ladies south of the border through this place. It pisses me off to think of the typical battleaxes/loafer floaters knocking into my elbow rest back in the states.
You know some of us here have read every bit of that report. You may or may not be aware of findings after that and the ongoing findings. The full damage of the incident is not yet known and may not be for another decade. As far as his decision to land the plane, I'm not going to second guess him. As far as some statement about what was on the plane was worth anyone's life we'll disagree.
You want to discuss you know where to find me but not here.
... from an AF ISR perspective,...
the EP-3 incident gets discussed. I'm certainly not "in the know", but it seems there was little or no CONOPS written for these missions. Foul.
It's also good that EP-3 crews attend SV-83 "survival" at Fairchild AFB now. It sounds like Osborne and company were not given very good training/guidance from the outset.
I don't know what was or wasn't on the EP-3... but there ARE some things that you must be willing to take the low-to-no survivability option for.
We had a mission when I started in this program where, if we lost the engine, we turned north and parked it in the deepest part of the Arctic Sea. The survival options were limited. But, that's what the JCS CONOPS directed.
I sure glanced at that oil pressure gage a lot over the course of 11 hours.
the EP-3 incident gets discussed. I'm certainly not "in the know", but it seems there was little or no CONOPS written for these missions. Foul.
It's also good that EP-3 crews attend SV-83 "survival" at Fairchild AFB now. It sounds like Osborne and company were not given very good training/guidance from the outset.
I don't know what was or wasn't on the EP-3... but there ARE some things that you must be willing to take the low-to-no survivability option for.
We had a mission when I started in this program where, if we lost the engine, we turned north and parked it in the deepest part of the Arctic Sea. The survival options were limited. But, that's what the JCS CONOPS directed.
I sure glanced at that oil pressure gage a lot over the course of 11 hours.
Back in the late sixties, the XO gave the EA-3 EWACs a direct order NOT to try for Vlad if we had problems on a Sea of Japan mission, no matter what. At the time the sea water temp in the SOJ was 31 degees and with a Mk 5 poopy suit, useful conscious time about fifteen minutes. The nearest US ships were more than four hours away. Also bailing out of a whale was iffy at best. I would have been the seventh guy to fall down the boarding ladder. The only up side to that was any antennas or vents would have been cleaned off by those that went before.