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The end of NATO?

Waveoff

Waveoff

Per Diem Mafia
None
And yes, I believe that you shouldn't half ass anything. But the opinions or actions of other countries has no bearing on how I feel about what we are doing or should be doing. Let alone from the strategic perspective of letting the Ukrainians kill the Ruskies with no loss of American lives.
 
BigRed389

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Waveoff said:
www.theguardian.com

White House directs officials to draft proposal to lift US sanctions on Russia

Sources say work on so-called ‘options paper’ comes as Trump seeks to restore Moscow ties and end Ukraine war
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Prime example of no longer being the biggest man in the room because its the right thing to do. Even the bare minimum of keeping sanctions in place is too hard apparently.
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I don’t like a lot of what’s been going on but the real litmus test will be whether they actually make a reasonable deal between Ukraine and Russia.

A lot of handwaving is that much of this preparatory to brokering a peace deal between Ukraine and Russia…and that doesn’t happen without some concessions to Russia. Another similar headline was regarding ceasing cyber ops against Russia …again, rationale was that it’s normal during delicate negotiations, which doesn’t sound all too crazy. Sanctions being lifted would be a “no cost” way to offer Russia some incentive, especially when we’re demonstrating that we’re totally not willing to support Ukraine to bleed them dry.

Now…unilaterally lifting sanctions for no gain? That’d be an incomprehensible red flag.
 
Waveoff

Waveoff

Per Diem Mafia
None
Ukraine made all of its "necessary" concessions to russia when it turned over its Nukes. IMO the bets are off, and you especially lose all your negotiating rights when you outright give the enemy everything they want up front. I hope to god there's some kind of back door policy making that will catch us off guard, but the bar is in the basement for what I think might actually happen.

History has shown that Russia isn't one to take what they can get and settle. They will chip away bit by bit until nothing is left and the Soviet Union is reformed. Concessions are a moot point because they can and have been undone in years time.
 
Brett327

Brett327

Well-Known Member
None
Super Moderator
Contributor
Waveoff said:
Ukraine made all of its "necessary" concessions to russia when it turned over its Nukes.
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As an aside, I've read some interesting analysis of that agreement that suggests that this turning over of nukes was, in large measure, symbolic. Apparently, the Russians already held what amounted to the launch codes for the nukes that Ukraine had physical custody of, and they would have been unusable without removing the physics package and reengineering the delivery devices. Something that the Ukraine of the early 90s may not have had the ability to pull off, let alone properly maintain a nuclear arsenal. Budapest and NPT were the feel good window dressing to that inevitability. I bring this up as a counterpoint to the "if only" sentiment that's out there. I say this as a big fan of the Nunn-Lugar effort. The early 90s was a trip.
 
BigRed389

BigRed389

Registered User
None
Brett327 said:
As an aside, I've read some interesting analysis of that agreement that suggests that this turning over of nukes was, in large measure, symbolic. Apparently, the Russians already held what amounted to the launch codes for the nukes that Ukraine had physical custody of, and they would have been unusable without removing the physics package and reengineering the delivery devices. Something that the Ukraine of the early 90s may not have had the ability to pull off, let alone properly maintain a nuclear arsenal. Budapest and NPT were the feel good window dressing to that inevitability. I bring this up as a counterpoint to the "if only" sentiment that's out there. I say this as a big fan of the Nunn-Lugar effort. The early 90s was a trip.
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I don’t think they were in any position to maintain the full size of their arsenal at the time.
Now, maintaining a small deterrent capability, something similar to France or UK arsenals….that may have been more realistic. Especially just threatening to blanket Russian jumping off areas and airfields with tactical nukes could’ve been absolutely 🔥
Tom Clancy’s corpse is probably sporting a chub just thinking about it.

Actually, that brings things back to NATO. Part of the Cold War deterrent against the Russkies was to smack any major force concentrations with tac nukes. Which was also a deterrent against Russia doing the same. NATO tac nukes are mostly US assets with US arming keys. Wonder how NATO asses the usefulness of those assets now…
 
sevenhelmet

sevenhelmet

Low calorie attack from the Heartland
pilot
Waveoff said:
Is the argument really that we should only do the right thing if everyone else is going to do it?
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He views the world as a zero sum game, and his heroes are running authoritarian dictatorships with low standards of living (but look how rich the leaders are!)

Trump isn’t interested in “doing the right thing”. That’s for losers and suckers. Europe’s underspending on defense is just an excuse. In fact, I predict it won’t save us a single dime to screw the Ukraine and pull out of NATO. They’ll find other places to spend that money, and more. To say nothing of lives lost, families destroyed, and materiel expended.
 
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taxi1

taxi1

Well-Known Member
pilot
Yardstick said:
www.bbc.com

Zelensky says White House clash was 'regrettable' - BBC News

The Ukrainian leader says his team is ready to negotiate after a diplomatic breakdown last week.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Looks like Trump won, again. Someone realized that the euros weren’t going to provide what they needed and is coming back with their tail between their legs. Keep it up!
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Trump beating up on the guy who is trying to stave off the nuclear armed commie horde is so on point.
 
MaxGar

MaxGar

Well-Known Member
None
Yardstick said:
www.bbc.com

Zelensky says White House clash was 'regrettable' - BBC News

The Ukrainian leader says his team is ready to negotiate after a diplomatic breakdown last week.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Looks like Trump won, again. Someone realized that the euros weren’t going to provide what they needed and is coming back with their tail between their legs. Keep it up!
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He so won.
He won so hard that the war stopped, the markets are up, goods are cheaper, the military is bigger, and nato is stronger
 
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