That’s going to be a long wait.That simple political messaging that didn't happen effectively is beyond me...and is possibly OBE. Waiting for courageous congressional leaders to step in.
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The end of NATO?
- Thread starter Waveoff
- Start date
I'm not sure Americans realize how people (Canadians & Europeans) hate us right now. I think it's visceral, and it will be hard to be repaired. Just my 2 cents.
The Canadians definitely don't think this is a troll...Great job guys.
Historian Stephen Kotkin referenced wrestling as well a few hours ago in The New Yorker:
Can Ukraineâand AmericaâSurvive Donald Trump?
The historian Stephen Kotkin analyzes what a President who governs in the style of professional wrestling gets wrong—and right—about an unstable world.
Trump gets off on that kind of thing. This isn’t likely to get better until people here at home start realizing the extent of the damage he has done.
I’m overseas right now. I don’t think it’s quite like that. It’s more of a hatred for Trump. Sure, some then draw the conclusion “how did Americans vote for this guy?” But I don’t think most are taking it out on individual Americans and most realize that still about 49% of Americans didn’t want this and plenty of Trump voters didn’t vote for some of these moves either. If we pull out of NATO, I think it could change more dramatically.
That's fair. My perception is that many assume different things. (of course there's similar "MAGA" views worldwide)
I'd argue that rhetoric that kind of soft quits NATO has already, or will, get us there.
I was in Berlin for an airshow last summer, and while there didn’t seem to be any animosity toward Americans, there was a lot of concern about us leaving NATO if Trump got re-elected. An Italian asked me once if Trump v Biden was the best we could do. I said “Of course not.” He got my point- it’s long since been taken out of our hands by private interests.
I think most individuals are reasonable and recognize the difference between a country’s government and its people- especially when things turn authoritarian. That said, if you’re raking this stuff up in a bar or waving an American flag around in another country like an asshole, you may get more than you bargained for.
Using my recent experience from my “summer retirement job” I’m not sure it matters. I saw thousands of Canadians last summer and while those from the maritime provinces were nice (even fun) I’d gladly accept not seeing another Quebecois come here. They have disliked America (maybe because we invaded in 1775…and again in 1812?) for some time and Trump has little to do with it. I used to think of Canada as a noble ally of WWI and WWII but now I’m wondering if one more crack at Quebec might be a better move than Operation Greenland!
Quebec is… unique. Even other Canadians kind of give them the side-eye. I used to work for Bombardier, a Quebec-based company. Despite good benefits, the elitism was prevalent, and as a US-based employee, it was clear I would always be a second-class citizen.
Flying across Quebec is weird too. They speak only French to each other, and will only grudgingly switch to English when you call them three (or more) times. Even the French themselves aren’t that bad, or as hard to understand.
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That's the other thing many are missing. The European right wing - while largely kept out of power in places like France and Germany as a result of the way the parliamentary system works - is very much on the rise (it's already taken a stand in Italy) and it's probably only a matter of time before some of those shaky-ish coalitions fall in some of these other NATO countries. That is to say: there are definitely some - not a minority - but some, Europeans that are very much a "burn it down" mindset a la Trump/Musk fanatics in the US.
So France and UK have nukes, but that is it. For now.
If I was a member of NATO, based on the tea leaves, why wouldn’t I want my own stash? Don’t want to be the next Ukraine, getting lectured about how I caused getting invaded.
A nuclear armed Germany…
If I was a member of NATO, based on the tea leaves, why wouldn’t I want my own stash? Don’t want to be the next Ukraine, getting lectured about how I caused getting invaded.
A nuclear armed Germany…
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There are several nuclear adjacent nations that are probably looking to go nuclear. Trump taking the US on a heel turn is definitely going to help break the nuclear taboo.
The nuclear taboo is in the US interest to be maintained. We don’t want to get to a place where one wrong move wipes out humanity.
Japan, South Korea, Australia, some South American countries, lots of European ones. Rogue countries of course. South Africa again?
It’s pretty amazing how we’ve managed to convince so many countries not to get them with our alliances.
Do most country have access to Uranium ore? Its pretty damn plentiful right? Industrial capacity is usually the limiting factor beyond treaties, correct?