The Raptors have landed...at Oceana

[HeyJoe]

After a busy few weeks in Alaska, twelve F-22 Raptors from Langley AFB returned to NAS Oceana this evening (instead of Langley due to runway repairs). The Raptors arrived in flights of 4 each with an escorting KC-10 tanker. The pilots and ground crews were greeted by loved ones and friends as the Raptors were bedded down in their new temporary home. Due to holiday weekend, the base gave them little notice other than operations, security and PAO personnel assisting them (and one guy in an Aloha shirt...moi).

 

[EODDave]

Wonder if we can pick a fight with em?

 

[HeyJoe]

Wonder if we can pick a fight with em?

I asked the question and heard they were game...I was watching for Red Rippers lurking. Also tried to see if any of them was the dude who spent 5 hours stuck in the cockpit.

 

[TheBubba]

Rhino vs. Raptor... I wonder how that would stack up... any Rhino drivers care to chime in?

 

[AllAmerican75]

Wasn't there a HUD picture a few weeks back that was of an F-22 in the sights of a Rhino?

 

[Brett327]

Wasn't there a HUD picture a few weeks back that was of an F-22 in the sights of a Rhino?

To add some perspective, and in keeping with your football background, any team can beat any other on any given day. Just don't mistake that for one side being able to "own" the other in general.

Brett

 

[navyao]

Here's the link to the pic of the Langley Crash & Salvage crews using a chain saw to cut the pilot out of his Raptor. How much do you think just the canopy costs? Since the USAF QDR calls for an entire wing of F-16's and half of its B-52's to be disestablished for a few more F-22's I'm guessing the canopys cost more than my home...
http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/pictures-pilot-trapped-for-5h-in.html

Here's a link to the pic of the Rhino's gun kill of the Raptor...Very cool. As you can imagine it created some very heated "discussion." For some reason the Air Farce guys kept saying that the Ripper's weren't following ROE because the Rhino's HUD shows them below 20,000. Sounds like a bunch of sore loosers to me. Anyway, just cut-n-paste.

http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-guns-down-f-22a.html

HJ, I'm guessing you talk to VF-31 quite a bit, any chance they'll fly some DACT hops against the 27th FS and their Raptors? I'd love to see some F-14D HUD footage of a Raptor kill.

Thanks!

 

[HeyJoe]

Here's the link to the pic of the Langley Crash & Salvage crews using a chain saw to cut the pilot out of his Raptor. How much do you think just the canopy costs? Since the USAF QDR calls for an entire wing of F-16's and half of its B-52's to be disestablished for a few more F-22's I'm guessing the canopys cost more than my home...
http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/pictures-pilot-trapped-for-5h-in.html

Here's a link to the pic of the Rhino's gun kill of the Raptor...Very cool. As you can imagine it created some very heated "discussion." For some reason the Air Farce guys kept saying that the Ripper's weren't following ROE because the Rhino's HUD shows them below 20,000. Sounds like a bunch of sore loosers to me. Anyway, just cut-n-paste.

http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-guns-down-f-22a.html

HJ, I'm guessing you talk to VF-31 quite a bit, any chance they'll fly some DACT hops against the 27th FS and their Raptors? I'd love to see some F-14D HUD footage of a Raptor kill.

Thanks!

Both parties are up for it and I'm sure it will happen in short order.

Brett is rght on target on that matter:

To add some perspective, and in keeping with your football background, any team can beat any other on any given day. Just don't mistake that for one side being able to "own" the other in general.

Brett

And Galland said it best "Only the spirit of attack will bring success to any fighter no matter how highly developed it may be"

So if the Raptor is flown well, it is unbeatable especially in BVR...if a pilot isn't on his game, one need look no further than stubby Grumman Wildcats taking on the vastly more maneuverable Japanese Navy Zeroes in the early days of WWII and winning or over the skies of Burma or China where relatively low performance P-40s took on the equally high performance and vaunted Japanese Army Oscars and racked up an exchange ratio that surpessed any other unit.

AVG Flying Tigers

Leading Tacticians and fighter pilots in the first year of WWII were "Butch" O'Hare and Jimmy Thach from the famed "Felix" squadron

 

[squeeze]

Here's a link to the pic of the Rhino's gun kill of the Raptor...Very cool.

Everyone always pimps that picture, but last I read, one snapshot does not satisfy established kill criteria.

 

[HeyJoe]

Here's a link to the pic of the Rhino's gun kill of the Raptor...Very cool.
Everyone always pimps that picture, but last I read, one snapshot does not satisfy established kill criteria.

Granted that the web evidence has only showed two frames of the snapshot "opportunity" seized upon by the VFA-11 Red Ripper F/A-18F in this instance...if you substitute "snapshot" for "gun kill", then the issue is moot as to whether it is a valid kill. The Raptor fan club is howling over the Rhino pressing the shot inside 1000' anyway, but in either case...the excitement was more over the fact that the Raptor got in a position where the Rhino got to use its tremendous nose pointing authority while relatively slow and put the "pipper" (BATR) on the spine of the Raptor (of course the Raptor looks like its trying to regain energy as well).

For the general young 'uns and aspirants (ie Eddie): Although we use a set number of frames in training to validate a "kill", in actual combat one round might do the job or it might well take many "frames" before an adversary is disabled or destroyed.

 

[TurnandBurn55]

I still wanna know how many times the Rhino was killed before they even got to that position.

This really isn't the forum to get into it... but let's just say

a) That pic really shouldn't have gotten onto the net.
b) The Raptor guys were less than amused by the results of that exercise, all around...

'Nuff said.

 

[navyao]

I still wanna know how many times the Rhino was killed before they even got to that position.

And a Tomcat vs. the Raptors... not the kind of embarassment the Tomcat should go through just prior to retirement.

I suppose this whole Rhino v. Raptor thing is all about the "inner-service" rivalries we have; regardless of what happened it's nice to see the ever increasingly expensive Raptor get gunned by the Rhino. As mentioned however, it depends on the stick, right?

Now please, keep in mind I've identified myself here as "navyao" for one reason, because I'm an AO. I am not an Aviator or an NFO. I have the upmost respect for all of you. I had the same goal all of you have obtained, unfortunately for me things didn't work out, I $uck in math! Now that I've addressed that I'd like to know why it would be an embarassment to the Tomcat community to conduct DAACT with the 27th FS?

When I was in the fleet and with VF-114 we flew F-14A's, mostly block 105's, (we weren't TARPS capable). The A mod Tomcat also had the TF-30-P414A engines. They weren't as bad as the P412's as far as compressor stalls but these didn't exactly fix the problem. Anyway, what I'm getting at is my squadron would go on det or during pre-deployment work-ups and would fly DAACT against a/c with far better thrust to weight and turn ratios and better AOA abilities then the F-14A, i.e. the (F-15, F-16, A-4, F-5). However, our airplanes still would find away to "kill" a/c with better thrust and tighter turn ratios then the F-14 and I'm not talking BVR engagements either, I'm talking knife fights.

Now the D mod's heavier then the A but it has a heck of a lot more thrust to weight with the F110's, like 20,000 more lbs if I remember correctly. Not to throw in "coin phrases" here but I used to hear the phrase, "speed is life," that should account for something shouldn't it, even against the stealthy Raptor?

Sooo...I'm sticking up for the airplane I love, so forgive me if I think the Tomcat can kick any a/c tail, stealth or whatever. I suppose I'm just as cocky as those who spent 30+ years flying it. As always, thanks in advance for any replies, be gentle.

 

[HeyJoe]

Here's the link to the pic of the Langley Crash & Salvage crews using a chain saw to cut the pilot out of his Raptor. How much do you think just the canopy costs?

I have the USAF Maintainer brief and it says $182,205. Text below:

- On 10 April 06 at approximately 0815 aircraft 03-041 had a Red Ball for a canopy unlock indication. Attempts to clear the problems by cycling the canopy failed. The final cycling of the canopy resulted in it being in the down and locked position. The canopy would not cycle up from this position trapping the pilot in the cockpit. The aircraft subsequently ground aborted.

- Attempts to manually open the canopy were unsuccessful

- 27th AMU consulted Lockheed Martin and the F-22A System Program Office to determine alternate methods to open the canopy and extract the pilot

- After all maintenance options were exhausted, the canopy was cut by fire department personnel and the pilot was extracted at approximately 1315

- Trouble-shooting of the aircraft is in work

- Canopy replacement cost is $182,205

 

[HeyJoe]

And a Tomcat vs. the Raptors... not the kind of embarassment the Tomcat should go through just prior to retirement.

I have a slightly different perspective. Despite being a Tomcat legacy guy, I see the opportunity for the Raptor pilots to use the Tomcat as an Adversary* asset in light of fact that Iran still operates them. It would be even more ideal if they could set up against A models to get virtually the same radar and engine perfromance comparisons, but there is still valid training to be had against the more capable D model. The Rhino gave them some surprises at Tyndall, who knows what the Tomcat might provide and the Tomcat is far more likely to be a potential adversary (in Iranian service) than a Rhino might be.

*I have done that (back in the day) with VF-32 at Nellis (USAF paid the tab, too) in order to provide F-15C pilots with realistic adversary "presentations". It's all part helping the joint team hone its edge and and great time for the troops to let off steam courtesy the Air Force.

 

[HeyJoe]

Ya but if things actually go sour with Iran, and we find ourselves in that situation... what do you think the chances are of them actually seeing a merge? You don't think their gonna knock em all down with the long stick, on timeline...? which is what that jet was made to do.

Therein lies the rub. There have been many fighters introduced in the past with a technological edge of some sort (relative to their adversaries). I'd agree that the Raptor represents perhaps the height of uncompromised fighter technology and would be difficult to best in an encounter, but the past also shows us that even the best technology can be defeated in the air or elsewhere. I think that is what Galland was trying to say in his quote.