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The SHOW: Airlines still a "good gig"??

Griz882

Griz882

Frightening children with the Griz-O-Copter!
pilot
Contributor
MGoBrew11 said:
Color me skeptical.

Maybe it’s in there, but why not offer grants to, oh I don’t know, highly qualified military aviators serving their country that just don’t have the ME time yet?
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I mean, sure, I have no heartache with that. Still, and please keep in mind I am not at the SHOW and I don’t want to start a war here, I think there should be more options for civilians to pursue an airline career without incurring a military aviation obligation. It seems that every few years the military raises the time-in-service obligation to keep guys in uniform. Sure, there are several unexplored options to keep guys in military cockpits, but Golden Path Warriors consistently shoot those down. So, if Joe Average (who will probably struggle to get an ever-rare military aviation slot) doesn’t want to spend two, three, even four years just to wing (and then start their obligation) needs a boost, why not? The grant money obligated is substantial, so I don’t see why any military aviator would be locked out.

I do agree with your comment on Navy COOL. It is the same in the Army and I assume the AF.
 
ChuckMK23

ChuckMK23

FERS and TSP contributor!
pilot
MGoBrew11 said:
If it’s out there, I’d love to find it. Most of my friends that have pursued it pay cash or use their GI Bill, the former of which I don’t think should be necessary. I also think the cash price is exorbitant for essentially just getting a certificate.

Navy COOL has basically shut out aviators.
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Ok so that is the program I was referring to, one of your peers who is a good friend (legacy HS guy, still O4 in Reserves) did his fixed wing time building, Commercial MEL, and ATP funded in good part through COOL. He was hired at Spirit with 0 jet time, and while in OE was hired at United. Unbelievable good fortune on timing.
 
MGoBrew11

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
Griz882 said:
I mean, sure, I have no heartache with that. Still, and please keep in mind I am not at the SHOW and I don’t want to start a war here, I think there should be more options for civilians to pursue an airline career without incurring a military aviation obligation. It seems that every few years the military raises the time-in-service obligation to keep guys in uniform. Sure, there are several unexplored options to keep guys in military cockpits, but Golden Path Warriors consistently shoot those down. So, if Joe Average (who will probably struggle to get an ever-rare military aviation slot) doesn’t want to spend two, three, even four years just to wing (and then start their obligation) needs a boost, why not? The grant money obligated is substantial, so I don’t see why any military aviator would be locked out.

I do agree with your comment on Navy COOL. It is the same in the Army and I assume the AF.
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Yeah understood and no real beef with it.

My thought overall though is that from a dollars perspective, it would seem that focusing on transitioning military makes more sense.

When you talk about sinking money into Joe or Josephine Blow off the street and turning them into an airline pilot, that is a substantial cost. There are tons of eager military folks ready to go. Removing one more barrier, financial or otherwise, for them helps tap into that potential…and they are already proven and experienced. RTPs are gaining more traction but some sort of grant for that would be ideal. I really don’t think a 2,000 hr helo aviator needs another 1,000 turbine to be a successful airline pilot.
 
MIDNJAC

MIDNJAC

is clara ship
pilot
MGoBrew11 said:
It’s designed to get anyone in the Navy with a Navy “cert” the civilian equivalent. They shut it down to pilots because we were bum rushing it every October 1 to get ATP funding.
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Wrong or right, I have to imagine the intent of this program was to help out the Sailors, and someone somewhere decided that they didn't want a bunch of officers depleting the program funding. I'm not sure how the current cost of an ATP (and ATP/CTP) compares with the average civilian trade certification, but I could see it being lopsided (especially in terms of sheer numbers of aviators + each being fairly expensive). Totally just my wild ass guess, based on nothing though.
 
MGoBrew11

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
MIDNJAC said:
Wrong or right, I have to imagine the intent of this program was to help out the Sailors, and someone somewhere decided that they didn't want a bunch of officers depleting the program funding. I'm not sure how the current cost of an ATP (and ATP/CTP) compares with the average civilian trade certification, but I could see it being lopsided (especially in terms of sheer numbers of aviators + each being fairly expensive). Totally just my wild ass guess, based on nothing though.
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Yeah, that is accurate.
 
SynixMan

SynixMan

Mobilizer Extraordinaire
pilot
Contributor
ChuckMK23 said:
A number of industry groups are at odds with pilot unions over this funding to alleviate "pilot shortage". What say you?

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I'm all for it. The shortage is for RJ CAs willing to work for bad pay and work rules, not at the majors, so ALPA has a point in the shortage being a mirage of a sort. The civilian barrier to entry is still high in terms of straight dollars and there's "Daddy has a plane and let me time build to 1000hrs" out there that's kind of bullshit IMO. My buddy does outreach flying in NOLA and ATL, so it's happening around the edges, but the average regional class photo still resembles a 1950s Indiana college basketball team. More is more.

MGoBrew11 said:
Color me skeptical.

Maybe it’s in there, but why not offer grants to, oh I don’t know, highly qualified military aviators serving their country that just don’t have the ME time yet?
Click to expand...

I guess I disagree here. There's a shitload of opportunities for military pilots (GI Bill, COOL while it lasted, Skillbridge, United's Military Pilot Program, etc) and they are in demand assets once current and ATPed. Guy can still do their ATP ride in the jet or sim with a friendly DPE, right? That's huge. Even having to do a penalty lap at a regional due to currency or lots of helo/tilt time isn't the end of the world. And if you're ready for a major leaving the military, a few thousand on ATP/CTP and ATP ride is peanuts in the grand scheme. The biggest issue is honestly the DoD and Big Navy locking down stuff like COOL and Skillbridge because officers dared to use them.

MIDNJAC said:
Wrong or right, I have to imagine the intent of this program was to help out the Sailors, and someone somewhere decided that they didn't want a bunch of officers depleting the program funding. I'm not sure how the current cost of an ATP (and ATP/CTP) compares with the average civilian trade certification, but I could see it being lopsided (especially in terms of sheer numbers of aviators + each being fairly expensive). Totally just my wild ass guess, based on nothing though.
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While true, a cursory search says an HVAC Repair Cert is ~3-5k. ATP/CTP is ~5k and an ATP short course is ~5k. So 2-3x but not an order of magnitude. I think it's part "officers are rich and don't need help" self flagellation and another part "let's not help our aviators leave when we need them for CriTiCaL SeA dUtY BiLLeTts". The former is the same reason they locked down skillbridge a few years back. Can't have those greedy LTs/LCDRs take a few months off to setup an orderly transition to civilian life, a decision made by 30 year CAPTs who had CJOs from Booze Allen 1 year out from their retirement. "How hard can it be?"
 
MGoBrew11

MGoBrew11

Well-Known Member
pilot
SynixMan said:
I'm all for it. The shortage is for RJ CAs willing to work for bad pay and work rules, not at the majors, so ALPA has a point in the shortage being a mirage of a sort. The civilian barrier to entry is still high in terms of straight dollars and there's "Daddy has a plane and let me time build to 1000hrs" out there that's kind of bullshit IMO. My buddy does outreach flying in NOLA and ATL, so it's happening around the edges, but the average regional class photo still resembles a 1950s Indiana college basketball team. More is more.



I guess I disagree here. There's a shitload of opportunities for military pilots (GI Bill, COOL while it lasted, Skillbridge, United's Military Pilot Program, etc) and they are in demand assets once current and ATPed. Guy can still do their ATP ride in the jet or sim with a friendly DPE, right? That's huge. Even having to do a penalty lap at a regional due to currency or lots of helo/tilt time isn't the end of the world. And if you're ready for a major leaving the military, a few thousand on ATP/CTP and ATP ride is peanuts in the grand scheme. The biggest issue is honestly the DoD and Big Navy locking down stuff like COOL and Skillbridge because officers dared to use them.



While true, a cursory search says an HVAC Repair Cert is ~3-5k. ATP/CTP is ~5k and an ATP short course is ~5k. So 2-3x but not an order of magnitude. I think it's part "officers are rich and don't need help" self flagellation and another part "let's not help our aviators leave when we need them for CriTiCaL SeA dUtY BiLLeTts". The former is the same reason they locked down skillbridge a few years back. Can't have those greedy LTs/LCDRs take a few months off to setup an orderly transition to civilian life, a decision made by 30 year CAPTs who had CJOs from Booze Allen 1 year out from their retirement. "How hard can it be?"
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Agree to disagree I guess, not going to dislike your post though haha

Like you said skillbridge and COOL are tough and/or not even options anymore. UMPP you still need to get your ATP before you onboard, so it’s not really any different than any other CJO. I disagree GI Bill is equivalent to some kind of grant. Using your GI Bill on a CTP/ATP for a value of about $10,000 is an absolute waste of money when you could use that GI Bill for an MBA or on your kid’s undergrad for a value of closer to $100,000.

EDIT: and as an addendum, my point was more with military aviators that don’t have the ME time and could use the money to build it. Yeah, in the grand scheme of things a CTP/ATP is a drop in the bucket if you’re going to the airlines. But if you’re a rotor guy and have to get that plus build a ridiculous amount of ME turbine time, it adds up….why not make it easier for those folks to get to the point where they are seen as “airline ready”? Maybe I’m biased as a RW to FW transition but what the airlines currently look for )market based of course) is way more than what it takes to get a seasoned rotary naval aviator ready to fly airliners.
 
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Fins Out

Fins Out

Well-Known Member
While you'll get more bang for the buck on an MBA or undergrad education, I wouldn't call using the GI Bill for your ATP an absolute waste of money. It's just another option to invest in getting the kind of job where you're making the kind of money you don't have to worry about how you're going to pay for your family's education.
 
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